Can low-time PPL(H)s ever be truly safe?
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Can low-time PPL(H)s ever be truly safe?
I probably don't want to hear the answer to this, but I'd be interested in your opinions regarding whether or not low-time PPL(H)s are safe?
I fly around 2 to 3 hours a month during the summer, and less during the winter months. Now, being low-time (85 ish hours), I'm well aware of my limitations and inexperience, and so have not come close to a dangerous, self-inflicted situation. I know what I can, and what I can't do.
However, I can't help think that my reactions to an engine failure in the hover, or at altitude, might be different from what my instructors have tried to drill into me. I'm confident that I could get an R44 down (from altitude) if I recognise the symptoms quick enough to auto properly, but must confess that it would probably topple or similar at the bottom end (but I'm working on the assumption that it would be survivable). If that's the case, should I be flying friends around at the weekend?
Is it any different for low-time fixed wing pilots? I get the feeling that an enine off landing may be slightly easier than in a helicopter, but I guess you have the problem of finding a flat piece of land first!!
Your thoughts appreciated.
I fly around 2 to 3 hours a month during the summer, and less during the winter months. Now, being low-time (85 ish hours), I'm well aware of my limitations and inexperience, and so have not come close to a dangerous, self-inflicted situation. I know what I can, and what I can't do.
However, I can't help think that my reactions to an engine failure in the hover, or at altitude, might be different from what my instructors have tried to drill into me. I'm confident that I could get an R44 down (from altitude) if I recognise the symptoms quick enough to auto properly, but must confess that it would probably topple or similar at the bottom end (but I'm working on the assumption that it would be survivable). If that's the case, should I be flying friends around at the weekend?
Is it any different for low-time fixed wing pilots? I get the feeling that an enine off landing may be slightly easier than in a helicopter, but I guess you have the problem of finding a flat piece of land first!!
Your thoughts appreciated.
Helo:
Your attitude is already giving you a head start. Keep at it! Being aware of the problems and applying sound judgement and airmanship should help you stay out of trouble. Think....where would I go now if the engine stops? Probably your two worst enemies are sudden reduction in RRPM or loss of visual reference/inadvertent IMC. Use some of your flying time to run through emergencies and do some PFLs/EOLs with a FI(H).
If you are ever unfortunate enough to have the engine quit, then it's your first attempt at the PFL that counts! As regards the EOL, so long as all POB walk away you will have been quite succesful. Anything more: just a bonus.
The same is largely true for Fixed-Wing. Many years ago as an impoverished student between UAS and the RAF I kept my PPL(A) going on about 45 mins a month, usually spending the time concentrating on keeping the core skills. So stalling, spinning (yes!) and PFL(s) would be rounded off by a power, glide, flapless and short field landing. It was fun, too! On occasions when I did have pax I was more confident of my ability to cope with the unexpected.
Hope this helps. Good luck.
Your attitude is already giving you a head start. Keep at it! Being aware of the problems and applying sound judgement and airmanship should help you stay out of trouble. Think....where would I go now if the engine stops? Probably your two worst enemies are sudden reduction in RRPM or loss of visual reference/inadvertent IMC. Use some of your flying time to run through emergencies and do some PFLs/EOLs with a FI(H).
If you are ever unfortunate enough to have the engine quit, then it's your first attempt at the PFL that counts! As regards the EOL, so long as all POB walk away you will have been quite succesful. Anything more: just a bonus.
The same is largely true for Fixed-Wing. Many years ago as an impoverished student between UAS and the RAF I kept my PPL(A) going on about 45 mins a month, usually spending the time concentrating on keeping the core skills. So stalling, spinning (yes!) and PFL(s) would be rounded off by a power, glide, flapless and short field landing. It was fun, too! On occasions when I did have pax I was more confident of my ability to cope with the unexpected.
Hope this helps. Good luck.
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Full marks....
I wish every PPL (A) I had to sit next to had your attitude instead of thinking that they are Chuck Yeager.
Dont know anything about Helicopters other than the usual Bigot fixed wing stuff (collection of parts trying to seperate themselves etc, etc......) so cant comment other wise
I wish every PPL (A) I had to sit next to had your attitude instead of thinking that they are Chuck Yeager.
Dont know anything about Helicopters other than the usual Bigot fixed wing stuff (collection of parts trying to seperate themselves etc, etc......) so cant comment other wise
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Congratulations!
Helo, I am impressed with both your attitude and your acceptance/acknowledgement of your limitations but to put your mind at rest, perhaps only slightly, remember there is not one pilot in the world today flying professionally who did not at one stage in their career, have only 85 hours!
In my opinion, your acknowledgement of your shortcomings (or more correctly; lack of experience) puts you leagues in front of all the 'bullet-proof' jocks, both helo and fixed wing, that we see on an almost daily basis.
Good luck with your flying and remember to look outside occasionally and enjoy the view!
In my opinion, your acknowledgement of your shortcomings (or more correctly; lack of experience) puts you leagues in front of all the 'bullet-proof' jocks, both helo and fixed wing, that we see on an almost daily basis.
Good luck with your flying and remember to look outside occasionally and enjoy the view!
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Helo,
I'm pretty much in the same boat as you although still only have R22 rating on about 65 hours. I manage 1 and a half maybe 2 hours a month generally just buzzing about keeping current.
I'd like to think that my instructor wouldn't have put me forward for examination and my examiner wouldn't have passed me unless they considered me safe (at least at that point).
I think that the key is, and you've touched on this, is the approach we have to our flying from now on. I'm not in this to prove to anyone how good a pilot I am as I think this could one day end up kicking me in the teeth. I truly believe in the addage that all we have here is a licence to learn and it is the steepest curve I've ever known.
I try to make sure I learn something new on every flight but, at this tender stage in my aviation 'career',(if you can call it that) if there is one thing I review before going up, it is the auto procedures and eol procedures. It is fine looking at the book once in a while but as you say, will you recognise the urgency of the situation in good enough time ? Well I try to convince myself that if it does happen to me then I've prepared myself well enough to give me a fighting chance, and if ever I begin to doubt this then I'll probably quit. Personally I try to get with an FI at least every six months as I think the extra 50 quid or so (less than a tenner a month) to practice some autos and eols and pick their brains on anything else that is bugging me is money well spent. If you back this up that you have to fly dual for a LPC once a year then the extra cash pales into insignificance.
Question for other guys:
When, if ever on a PPL, is a good time to practice autos without an instructor ?
A recent 'Helichamps' competition advertised, amongst other events, 'Precision Auto's'. You could enter this comp on a ppl which frankly scares me a bit.
I'm pretty much in the same boat as you although still only have R22 rating on about 65 hours. I manage 1 and a half maybe 2 hours a month generally just buzzing about keeping current.
I'd like to think that my instructor wouldn't have put me forward for examination and my examiner wouldn't have passed me unless they considered me safe (at least at that point).
I think that the key is, and you've touched on this, is the approach we have to our flying from now on. I'm not in this to prove to anyone how good a pilot I am as I think this could one day end up kicking me in the teeth. I truly believe in the addage that all we have here is a licence to learn and it is the steepest curve I've ever known.
I try to make sure I learn something new on every flight but, at this tender stage in my aviation 'career',(if you can call it that) if there is one thing I review before going up, it is the auto procedures and eol procedures. It is fine looking at the book once in a while but as you say, will you recognise the urgency of the situation in good enough time ? Well I try to convince myself that if it does happen to me then I've prepared myself well enough to give me a fighting chance, and if ever I begin to doubt this then I'll probably quit. Personally I try to get with an FI at least every six months as I think the extra 50 quid or so (less than a tenner a month) to practice some autos and eols and pick their brains on anything else that is bugging me is money well spent. If you back this up that you have to fly dual for a LPC once a year then the extra cash pales into insignificance.
Question for other guys:
When, if ever on a PPL, is a good time to practice autos without an instructor ?
A recent 'Helichamps' competition advertised, amongst other events, 'Precision Auto's'. You could enter this comp on a ppl which frankly scares me a bit.
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Kissmysquirrel,
Agreed. Most schools don't authorise PPL(H)'s to conduct auto's on their own and, in a nutshell, I see it as very cheap insurance to go along for the ride on such occasions.
There is no suggestion that a PPL might not be able to pull off the auto at this stage but generally, they are popping in for some autos because it has been awhile since they were last done. If a person is COMPETENT AND CURRENT with autos, then I may authorise as session of solo practice.
Have fun and fly safe!
There is no suggestion that a PPL might not be able to pull off the auto at this stage but generally, they are popping in for some autos because it has been awhile since they were last done. If a person is COMPETENT AND CURRENT with autos, then I may authorise as session of solo practice.
Have fun and fly safe!
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Sure, I think low time pilots can be safe, so long as they have your very good attitude.
My only suggestion for any pilot, fixed or rotor-wing, is to go up for a flight review every year. Doing that twice as often as required by law can only make you a better pilot and allow you to pratice things like autos with a CFI more often.
My only suggestion for any pilot, fixed or rotor-wing, is to go up for a flight review every year. Doing that twice as often as required by law can only make you a better pilot and allow you to pratice things like autos with a CFI more often.
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Auto's....
Hello all,
As previously dicussed on this page, I am also a low time Heli Pilot (135 Hrs) but am, I think, fortunate enough to fly a Bell 47, and after hearing stories of how hard and perhaps some times scarey the R22 is to master the auto, to which I have absolutly no knowledge of, and how people would rather not undertake practicing them for this reason, to me I find some what alarming. The reason why I mention this is, is because at the end of the day, when that donkey stops, it's what you've got to do to save your life.
The Bell 47 is a dream to fly, the inertia in the blades are fantastic, and without doudt you can enter autorotations from speeds of 50mph down to a vertical decent to land, without a real drama. I do enjoy practcing auto's and I am very lucky the Bell is a forgiving Helicopter.
I find that by keeping curent out ways a lot of my fears still.
Great page chaps
As previously dicussed on this page, I am also a low time Heli Pilot (135 Hrs) but am, I think, fortunate enough to fly a Bell 47, and after hearing stories of how hard and perhaps some times scarey the R22 is to master the auto, to which I have absolutly no knowledge of, and how people would rather not undertake practicing them for this reason, to me I find some what alarming. The reason why I mention this is, is because at the end of the day, when that donkey stops, it's what you've got to do to save your life.
The Bell 47 is a dream to fly, the inertia in the blades are fantastic, and without doudt you can enter autorotations from speeds of 50mph down to a vertical decent to land, without a real drama. I do enjoy practcing auto's and I am very lucky the Bell is a forgiving Helicopter.
I find that by keeping curent out ways a lot of my fears still.
Great page chaps
Stop the bus and let my brother Jack off
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All,
I remember very well the time when I felt the way like some of the posters on this thread - a real life engine out?? Let's better hope that never happens
I want to recomend that you find yourself FI's that bulid confidence (besides experience - some even ONLY build flight hours). I my case the 4th FI was the 1st to give me what I needed most to survive an emergency: Trust in my own capability of getting the job done. I am still partly a FI (because I enjoy doing it) and try to attack this issue with my students from all kind of angles if nessessary! Anybody who has come as far as getting his PLL (or further) is basically smart enough to learn how to do the right thing at the right time in an emergency. The question is: are you going to freak out because you never believed in yourself concerning that task. How can I build that confidence in a student? Mainly by letting them have the controls all for themself and reassuring them after each practice auto (or whatever manouver) that it was he/her ALONE at the controls. I only touch it to prevent us from crashing or hurting the helicopter (overspeeds, tailstrikes etc). We all know that a student learns next to nothing when we are both at the controls. I "inherited" students who had never been alone at the controls in the first 30 hours!! During the first lessons they would shout "you take it , you take it" for every little bump in the air. So whenever an instructor doesn't let COMPLEATELY go of the controls he actually steals time (and money) from the student. Probably the FI is not comfortable himself with the manouver.
O.k. I got talking a bit more then I thought here, but you all get the drift: something that you KNOW you managed to do by YOURSELF hundred times before will not be a problem to do one more time when s*** hits the fan!!
Safe flights
sp
I remember very well the time when I felt the way like some of the posters on this thread - a real life engine out?? Let's better hope that never happens
I want to recomend that you find yourself FI's that bulid confidence (besides experience - some even ONLY build flight hours). I my case the 4th FI was the 1st to give me what I needed most to survive an emergency: Trust in my own capability of getting the job done. I am still partly a FI (because I enjoy doing it) and try to attack this issue with my students from all kind of angles if nessessary! Anybody who has come as far as getting his PLL (or further) is basically smart enough to learn how to do the right thing at the right time in an emergency. The question is: are you going to freak out because you never believed in yourself concerning that task. How can I build that confidence in a student? Mainly by letting them have the controls all for themself and reassuring them after each practice auto (or whatever manouver) that it was he/her ALONE at the controls. I only touch it to prevent us from crashing or hurting the helicopter (overspeeds, tailstrikes etc). We all know that a student learns next to nothing when we are both at the controls. I "inherited" students who had never been alone at the controls in the first 30 hours!! During the first lessons they would shout "you take it , you take it" for every little bump in the air. So whenever an instructor doesn't let COMPLEATELY go of the controls he actually steals time (and money) from the student. Probably the FI is not comfortable himself with the manouver. O.k. I got talking a bit more then I thought here, but you all get the drift: something that you KNOW you managed to do by YOURSELF hundred times before will not be a problem to do one more time when s*** hits the fan!!
Safe flights
sp
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Couldnīt resist, :
a) I did get my first job with only 85 hrs swing-wing. However with more luck than brains..., it was definitly not very professional, rather scary!! B-47 on a tunaboat.....and there are plenty of people that got on a boat with way less!!.................? Forget it, not anymore, 250-400 minimum + some serious checkout - about 15-20 hrs!
b) Helo, as mentioned already: hrs ,typ of licence are not important, practise and mainly ATTITUDE is.
You maybe a 10000hr pro and still donīt know how do fly, just got lucky to get there.............
c) I think you asked: You are right, concerning autos and other emergencies - you never know until it hits you with a real one.
Happend to me - luckily I reacted the correct way - everyone walked and the machine flew again and supposedly still does.
However, try to practise at least 30% of your available time if you can. Once you lose "respect" (speak: fear...) for autos, they actually become fun!!
d) Although in most factory manuals the recommendation goes against throttle chops, I strongly believe they are essential to check a student whether he will do the right thing or not.
One thing is a practise, with possibly a count of three, another a surprisingly low rpm on the engine-gage!!
However this has to be done carefully, it is not a means to scare a student or/and to show off! The CFI has to be very prepared to continue if the student does not react or worse reacts the wrong way!! You have to advice the student, that there might be some "anomalies" with the engine, sometime in this sesion! That gives him an alertness he should develop anyway for his flying career.
When I do presolo-checks I normaly practise a couple of autos and then advise the student that the next one will be with a chop. If his Instructor never did one, I will introduce him to it very carefully and normaly it will instill rather confidence then fear. BUT it is essential the CFI knows the machine (speak - is not afraid of it, as it might be with some lowtime CFIīs and R-22īs)!!
Hardly any solo-check candidate is anywhere near a perfect auto, but for me the most important thing is to get him into an auto in the case he really looses the engine on the solo, and you only can check his reaction if you chop it (actually a control roll off, not a real slam-chop...). Once he is established in the auto, he has a good chance to survive, he will do something at the least when it is time to flare......maybe even a perfect termination...
However a pre-checkride check does only include regular practise-autos, to perfect them.....
e) PRACTISE EVERY CHANCE YOU GET - WITH A CFI - UNTIL HE CONFIRMS TO YOU, THAT YOU ARE READY TO DO THEM ALL BY YOURSELF!!
f) Did I mention, practise all you can!!
g) Make autos an essential part of your flying! Enjoy it!
3top
:a) I did get my first job with only 85 hrs swing-wing. However with more luck than brains..., it was definitly not very professional, rather scary!! B-47 on a tunaboat.....and there are plenty of people that got on a boat with way less!!.................? Forget it, not anymore, 250-400 minimum + some serious checkout - about 15-20 hrs!
b) Helo, as mentioned already: hrs ,typ of licence are not important, practise and mainly ATTITUDE is.
You maybe a 10000hr pro and still donīt know how do fly, just got lucky to get there.............
c) I think you asked: You are right, concerning autos and other emergencies - you never know until it hits you with a real one.
Happend to me - luckily I reacted the correct way - everyone walked and the machine flew again and supposedly still does.
However, try to practise at least 30% of your available time if you can. Once you lose "respect" (speak: fear...) for autos, they actually become fun!!
d) Although in most factory manuals the recommendation goes against throttle chops, I strongly believe they are essential to check a student whether he will do the right thing or not.
One thing is a practise, with possibly a count of three, another a surprisingly low rpm on the engine-gage!!
However this has to be done carefully, it is not a means to scare a student or/and to show off! The CFI has to be very prepared to continue if the student does not react or worse reacts the wrong way!! You have to advice the student, that there might be some "anomalies" with the engine, sometime in this sesion! That gives him an alertness he should develop anyway for his flying career.
When I do presolo-checks I normaly practise a couple of autos and then advise the student that the next one will be with a chop. If his Instructor never did one, I will introduce him to it very carefully and normaly it will instill rather confidence then fear. BUT it is essential the CFI knows the machine (speak - is not afraid of it, as it might be with some lowtime CFIīs and R-22īs)!!
Hardly any solo-check candidate is anywhere near a perfect auto, but for me the most important thing is to get him into an auto in the case he really looses the engine on the solo, and you only can check his reaction if you chop it (actually a control roll off, not a real slam-chop...). Once he is established in the auto, he has a good chance to survive, he will do something at the least when it is time to flare......maybe even a perfect termination...
However a pre-checkride check does only include regular practise-autos, to perfect them.....
e) PRACTISE EVERY CHANCE YOU GET - WITH A CFI - UNTIL HE CONFIRMS TO YOU, THAT YOU ARE READY TO DO THEM ALL BY YOURSELF!!
f) Did I mention, practise all you can!!
g) Make autos an essential part of your flying! Enjoy it!
3top
Great attitude.
I have been at it for 15 years now, and I still seek a visit to another instructor at least three times per year. I love flying with other instructors (and experienced pilots) and I actively seek the experience because I still get to learn, I still get to hone my skills, and I still get nearer to being comfortable with the very same question you are asking yourselves: "Will I cope with the real thing"? That's right, I still ask it, and I am sure many other pilots do.
Keep asking yourself the same question.
Good luck.
I have been at it for 15 years now, and I still seek a visit to another instructor at least three times per year. I love flying with other instructors (and experienced pilots) and I actively seek the experience because I still get to learn, I still get to hone my skills, and I still get nearer to being comfortable with the very same question you are asking yourselves: "Will I cope with the real thing"? That's right, I still ask it, and I am sure many other pilots do.
Keep asking yourself the same question.
Good luck.
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to helmetfire:
Lucky you, I hope you can maintain the big question until you retire old and prosper without ever finding out!!!
3top
PS: On the other hand I am glad to have found out that I react correctly (at least I did once - I hope I never have to again!!!)
Sofar I got away with a couple of "interesting" situations, some selfinduced, others not. I was lucky to do the right thing everytime - never got caught with the left one...
Lucky you, I hope you can maintain the big question until you retire old and prosper without ever finding out!!!
3topPS: On the other hand I am glad to have found out that I react correctly (at least I did once - I hope I never have to again!!!)
Sofar I got away with a couple of "interesting" situations, some selfinduced, others not. I was lucky to do the right thing everytime - never got caught with the left one...
