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ORS4 & FI Certificate

Old 18th Oct 2021, 21:30
  #1 (permalink)  
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Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Devon
Posts: 95
ORS4 & FI Certificate

There must be loads of us in this situation.....

I have EASA (Malta) CPL with SEP & FI. FI is due for reval Nov 30th - no problem....but...

I'm still waiting for my UK FCL licence to arrive (have been since April)
ORS 4 1495 says only extends FI privileges to October 31 2021, which means that after that date I can instruct for EASA licence, ratings and certificates, but not for UK licences etc.
Does anybody know if ORS 4 1495 will be replaced/extended? As I understand, I could not use FI privileges for UK work beyond Nov 30th even though it will be valid on the EASA licence.

I will revalidate my FI in November with a EASA/UK FIE. He can sign the EASA licence, but will he be able to sign the UK licence late if it has not arrived by then? Can SRG1100 be used to cover this?


Last edited by mykul10; 18th Oct 2021 at 22:47. Reason: Update
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Old 19th Oct 2021, 08:42
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Join Date: Oct 2004
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ORS5-1495 is vaild to 31 Oct not Nov. Maybe a question directed to the CEO at Gatwick or Laughing Boy Shapps whose department has caused all this mess might be worth considering.
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Old 19th Oct 2021, 15:58
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Originally Posted by Whopity View Post
ORS5-1495 is vaild to 31 Oct not Nov. Maybe a question directed to the CEO at Gatwick or Laughing Boy Shapps whose department has caused all this mess might be worth considering.
Thanks Whopity - I had copied the Oct 31st expiry for 1495. Nov 30th is when my FI is due. There must be loads of us in this situation......
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Old 19th Oct 2021, 17:27
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Join Date: Oct 2004
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I suspect you are correct.
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Old 20th Oct 2021, 15:28
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Join Date: Apr 2004
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I find it very confusing that ORS4 No.1495 exists in the first place.

The Aviation Safety (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019 (SI 2019 No. 645), Sch 3, para 2:

2.—(1) Subject to paragraph 3, any other licence, certificate or
approval issued by the European Aviation Safety Agency or by the
national competent authority of an EEA state which continues to be in
force or effective on or after exit day by virtue of Part 3 of
Schedule 8 to the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, is—

(a) to continue to be in force or effective on and after exit day for
the remainder of its validity period up to a maximum of 2 years
(subject to any earlier suspension or cancellation by the CAA); and

(b) to be treated as if it were issued by the CAA.

(2) This paragraph applies only to documents issued under Regulation
(EU) No 2018/1139 and EU implementing Regulations made under it.


According to note I2 on legislation.gov.uk, this provision commenced on IP completion day rather than exit day. The note refers to the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Act 2020 (2020 c. 1), Sch 5, subpara 1(1):

1 (1) Any provision in subordinate legislation made before exit day under—

(a) any provision of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 (or any
provision made under any such provision), or

(b) any other enactment,

which provides, by reference to exit day (however expressed), for all
or part of that or any other subordinate legislation to come into
force immediately before exit day, on exit day or at any time after
exit day is to be read instead as providing for the subordinate
legislation or (as the case may be) the part to come into force
immediately before IP completion day, on IP completion day or (as the
case may be) at the time concerned after IP completion day.


The above SI 2019 No. 645 is (a) subordinate legislation which was made (b) before exit day (2300z on 31 Jan 2020, see Interpretation Act 1978), (c) under a provision of the EU(W)A 2018 (2018 c. 16), and which was originally (d) to come into force immediately on exit day.

Further, para 2 above refers to Part 3 of Schedule 8 to the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. The words "exit day" in that part were replaced with "IP completion day" by EU(WA)A 2020 (2020 c. 1). Finally, para 3, mentioned in para 2 quoted above, makes a requirement for such a licence to be validated by UK CAA before being used on a UK-registered aircraft outside the UK. That is done by a general validation, published as CAP2017, whose subtitle reads "Validation of EASA Part-FCL licences between 1 January 2021 and 31 December 2022" which is two years immediately after IP completion day.

So if I have understood para 2 above correctly, an EASA Part-FCL instructor or examiner certificate is to be treated as if it were issued by the CAA for the remainder of the certificate's validity period up to a maximum of 2 years until 2300z on 31 Dec 2022 at the latest, ie 2 years after IP completion day. Have I completely misunderstood the above legislation?
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Old 20th Oct 2021, 19:05
  #6 (permalink)  
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Location: Devon
Posts: 95
Originally Posted by selfin View Post
I find it very confusing that ORS4 No.1495 exists in the first place.

The Aviation Safety (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019 (SI 2019 No. 645), Sch 3, para 2:

2.—(1) Subject to paragraph 3, any other licence, certificate or
approval issued by the European Aviation Safety Agency or by the
national competent authority of an EEA state which continues to be in
force or effective on or after exit day by virtue of Part 3 of
Schedule 8 to the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, is—

(a) to continue to be in force or effective on and after exit day for
the remainder of its validity period up to a maximum of 2 years
(subject to any earlier suspension or cancellation by the CAA); and

(b) to be treated as if it were issued by the CAA.

(2) This paragraph applies only to documents issued under Regulation
(EU) No 2018/1139 and EU implementing Regulations made under it.


According to note I2 on legislation.gov.uk, this provision commenced on IP completion day rather than exit day. The note refers to the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Act 2020 (2020 c. 1), Sch 5, subpara 1(1):

1 (1) Any provision in subordinate legislation made before exit day under—

(a) any provision of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 (or any
provision made under any such provision), or

(b) any other enactment,

which provides, by reference to exit day (however expressed), for all
or part of that or any other subordinate legislation to come into
force immediately before exit day, on exit day or at any time after
exit day is to be read instead as providing for the subordinate
legislation or (as the case may be) the part to come into force
immediately before IP completion day, on IP completion day or (as the
case may be) at the time concerned after IP completion day.


The above SI 2019 No. 645 is (a) subordinate legislation which was made (b) before exit day (2300z on 31 Jan 2020, see Interpretation Act 1978), (c) under a provision of the EU(W)A 2018 (2018 c. 16), and which was originally (d) to come into force immediately on exit day.

Further, para 2 above refers to Part 3 of Schedule 8 to the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. The words "exit day" in that part were replaced with "IP completion day" by EU(WA)A 2020 (2020 c. 1). Finally, para 3, mentioned in para 2 quoted above, makes a requirement for such a licence to be validated by UK CAA before being used on a UK-registered aircraft outside the UK. That is done by a general validation, published as CAP2017, whose subtitle reads "Validation of EASA Part-FCL licences between 1 January 2021 and 31 December 2022" which is two years immediately after IP completion day.

So if I have understood para 2 above correctly, an EASA Part-FCL instructor or examiner certificate is to be treated as if it were issued by the CAA for the remainder of the certificate's validity period up to a maximum of 2 years until 2300z on 31 Dec 2022 at the latest, ie 2 years after IP completion day. Have I completely misunderstood the above legislation?
Wow - sounds just like Sir Humphrey - only much more useful. Thank you.

So we need an answer as to why 1495 exists at all.

We also need an assurance from CAA that any certificates or ratings that are issued whilst the CAA is in the process of issuing (that should be re-issuing!) a licence will be honoured and valid from the date of test/AOC and can be signed on the licence when it arrives. We are pursuing a couple of senior guys at CAA and will report any progress. In the meantime, if anybody else has already been down this road?...

There must be lo.........

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Old 20th Oct 2021, 20:43
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Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: South West
Posts: 110
Ah joy. I am pretty sure the CAA Head of Licensing (see sig block on 1495) will be redoing 1495. He will be bombarded by the many Head of Training who would face losing multiple TRE on 31 Oct (including my HoT who is in the same boat as you).

If you want to ask why, try why were our licences arbitrarily invalidated when we decided to change SOLI. The only reason this used to exist for SOLI was because you couldn’t have 2 EASA licences - this issue ceased to exist on 1 January 2021 and yet the CAA still invalidated (without telling anyone) the individuals UK licence.
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Old 22nd Oct 2021, 11:25
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Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Italy
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Can you hold both UK CAA and EASA license with the new conversion procedure or they will invalidate your EASA license after conversion?
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Old 22nd Oct 2021, 11:57
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: South West
Posts: 110
Both. I know of many pilots who do so now.
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Old 29th Oct 2021, 11:43
  #10 (permalink)  
GgW
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
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ORS 1495

Do anybody know if the CAA is going to extend the date pass the 31 October?
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Old 31st Oct 2021, 07:22
  #11 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by GgW View Post
Do anybody know if the CAA is going to extend the date pass the 31 October?
I am told that they are not and seeing that today is the aforementioned 31 October....
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Old 31st Oct 2021, 12:23
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Join Date: Oct 2004
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By all accounts the CAA has its hands tied by the DfT under the leadership of Mr Grant Schapps the Minister who operates under a flag of conveinence.
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Old 1st Nov 2021, 08:30
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GgW
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
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No extension then….. would be interesting to know how many instructors/examiners found themselves out off jobs from today onwards until UK CAA PLD eventually issues their UK licenses.
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