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PBN Endorsement

Old 4th Feb 2020, 19:31
  #1 (permalink)  
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PBN Endorsement

Quick question for those instructors who teach and those examiners who examine for the IMC / IR(R) and IR ........

In relation to PBN endorsement that will be a requirement on a holder of an IR to fly PBN routes / approaches, has the CAA given any guidance in how this will apply to holders of an IMC / IR(R) holder and their ability to fly PBN routes / approaches. I recall seeing a CAA document saying that they would issue guidance on this matter.

IN 2017-34

9 UK Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC) or Restricted Instrument Rating (IR(R))
9.1 The UK CAA will issue further information via Skywise on the impact of the PBN regulations on the IMC/IR(R) Rating and update Standards Document 25, later in the year.

Standards Document 25 is still dated March 2008 !!!



Last edited by VFR-Seek and Destroy; 5th Feb 2020 at 00:31.
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Old 4th Feb 2020, 22:12
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I recall seeing a CAA document saying that they would issue guidance on this matter.
When the syllabus does not mandate ADF, ILS or GPS the provision of guidance is no doubt a little more problematical than that statent might suggest. With no changes to the IMC rating in the past 30 years they are probably waiting for it to be replaced by the BIR.
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Old 6th Feb 2020, 06:36
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they are probably waiting for it to be replaced by the BIR.
Well, I hope it takes a long time. As far as I can tell, EASA are going to require all BIR training to be conducted at an ATO. That means that those conducting IR(R) training and testing as a DTO will be excluded.
ATO-only training will
a) considerably reduce the options for people to obtain the rating
b) considerably increase the cost

If I had a vote I'd keep the IR(R) in parallel - it's still a UK-only rating

The aircraft we use for IR(R) training and testing hasn't PBN capability - I suspect this applies to much of the DTO fleet. In any event, we don't have a GNSS approach available locally so it's academic.

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Old 6th Feb 2020, 08:45
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My thoughts are similar. Except that, since anyone teaching the BIR will have to at least hold the rating, can somebody think of a good reason why it can't be done at a DTO? I've spent huge amounts of money updating our Archer to make it capable of PBN and I have at least three instructors with full I.R. who are rated to teach instrument.

I've heard rumours that AOPA and the CAA are pushing for DTOs to be included, anybody know if that's true?
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Old 6th Feb 2020, 18:00
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Its not even an attractive proposition for an ATO, with no specified course length and the likely cost of the approval there is no incentive whatsoever. Hopefully the UK will retain the IMC as EASA can't stop them. Anyway its no longer called EASA! Its become EUSELESS or something similar.
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Old 13th Feb 2020, 09:00
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TOO and Whopity , Hope the CAA are reading this , as I'm voting with you . In the UK , IMC/IRR is a useful tool , 'specially looking out of the window today .
Our fleet can do the basic IMC/IRR stuff , but only 1 a/c has a built in GPS , and getting that to PBN is a no go .
If it 'ain't bust ,please don't fix it .

rgds condor.
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Old 3rd May 2020, 16:55
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Everybody talks about PBN as an endorsement to be added to the IR rating, which will be mandatory after 25 August 2020.

What about the aircraft then? If I have an aircraft not approved for PBN operations, can I still fly under IFR after 25 August 2020. (let’s suppose as a pilot I am PBN endorsed but I need to fly my PA28 which is not PBN approved)

Where can I find regulation regarding aircraft minimum equipment for IFR to know what to do after August 25?

thank you
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Old 3rd May 2020, 17:25
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Same as before - your National AIP will show required equipment under instruments/equipment (GEN 1.5), and any ATS routes you intend to use will have their requirements in ENR 3.1-.3, eg the great majority of European ATS routes require RNAV5 equipment.
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Old 3rd May 2020, 22:19
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The BIR seemed to be a really good prospect but it has been hijacked somewhere in EU land. Gold plating and unnecessary hurdles. That to instruct for it requires a full IR is a good example. Keep the IMC (it doesn’t need to be called the IR(R) now).
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Old 4th May 2020, 09:05
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Thank you LastStandards.

@rarelyathome: what do you mean by “keep the IMC”?
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Old 4th May 2020, 16:15
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In the UK we have had an IMC ratting for many years which allows flight in IMC and to make instrument approaches, albeit to a higher DA. Under EASA, that became the IR(R) which is to be superceded by the BIR. It would be criminal to lose the IMC/IR(R) in favour of the BIR which requires more training and instructors with full IRs. I can see no reason why an instructor with a BIR (if they get one) shouldn't instruct for that rating - why should they need a full IR?
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