P1/s????
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 263
Likes: 0
From: Texas, USA
Here's a cracking link to how we do this in the FAA ...
http://www.awp.faa.gov/new/fsdo/las_vegas/art_pilot.htm
FYI, both my flight tests (glider / airplane) were written up by the respective examiners as PIC for me.
http://www.awp.faa.gov/new/fsdo/las_vegas/art_pilot.htm
FYI, both my flight tests (glider / airplane) were written up by the respective examiners as PIC for me.
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 263
Likes: 0
From: Texas, USA
Even better, the following seems to explain how the instructor I checked out with at a local school logged my time as PIC in the two hour checkout (sole manipulator of controls).
Logging PIC time ... (Private and Commercial Pilots)
1. When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated.
Logging PIC time (Instructors and Others)
A flight instructor may log PIC "while acting as a authorized instructor". No change to previous regulations.
A student pilot can now log PIC. That’s new, and since there is no restriction, your logbook can be updated so that all student solo time prior to August 4, 1997 may be logged as PIC. When an instructor is aboard, since the student is not rated in the aircraft, flight instruction is still logged as dual not PIC.
Then there are some unusual situations which occur. A private pilot flying with his friend (a CFI or ATP) aboard as a passenger. What is the status of the CFI or ATP who is obviously a more senior pilot with more experience than the private pilot? The regulations don’t address this situation, but the courts may find that the more senior pilot has some or all the responsibility for the operation or safety of the flight.
In summary, the person who is pilot-in-command may log PIC, others may also log PIC depending in the circumstances.
Logging PIC time ... (Private and Commercial Pilots)
1. When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated.
Logging PIC time (Instructors and Others)
A flight instructor may log PIC "while acting as a authorized instructor". No change to previous regulations.
A student pilot can now log PIC. That’s new, and since there is no restriction, your logbook can be updated so that all student solo time prior to August 4, 1997 may be logged as PIC. When an instructor is aboard, since the student is not rated in the aircraft, flight instruction is still logged as dual not PIC.
Then there are some unusual situations which occur. A private pilot flying with his friend (a CFI or ATP) aboard as a passenger. What is the status of the CFI or ATP who is obviously a more senior pilot with more experience than the private pilot? The regulations don’t address this situation, but the courts may find that the more senior pilot has some or all the responsibility for the operation or safety of the flight.
In summary, the person who is pilot-in-command may log PIC, others may also log PIC depending in the circumstances.
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
From: Staffordshire
Very intersting discussion, but having been an instructor, examiner and commercial pilot for 20 years I was under the impression that the only person that was legally allowed to log P1 was the pilot that signed the tech log to accept the aircraft. In the case of a check flight if the instructor signs for the aircraft then he is legally in command and if the person being checked signs for it then he is the Captain and therefore allowed to log P1, the question to be asked is on a check flight (not a test where the examiner is always the Captain) who has to sign for the aircraft and therefore be in command. Maybe the CAA could answer that one and make thing a little more clear.
Joined: May 1999
Posts: 424
Likes: 0
From: UK
Aha...found my reply from the CAA...date 29.Jan.2002
Re: logging P1S for club checks (not licence related).
Thank you for your email dated 05 January 2002, firstly can I apologise for
the delay in responding to your enquiry.
[snip]
Officially you can only count time as Pilot in Command (PIC) or
Pilot under Training (PUT) in a single pilot aeroplane. However, recently
pilots under going test or checks have logged Pilot in Command under
Supervision for things like IMC Flight Tests, LPC and PPL(A) Skill Tests.
JAR-FCL 1.080 details the logging of flight time, can I refer you and your
flying school to this for a definitive answer.
I trust the above has clarified the current requirements. If you have any
further questions relating to this email please visit our website or
alternatively, please contact your Customer Service Team on 01293 573700.
Yours sincerely
Justin Willcocks
Licensing Operations
When his says checks he means LPC - not club checks as clarified above. Club checks fall fall under the first part of the statement.
It still stands that the dual training flight requirement must obviously be logged as put because otherwise it is not a 'dual training flight' by definition.
Re: logging P1S for club checks (not licence related).
Thank you for your email dated 05 January 2002, firstly can I apologise for
the delay in responding to your enquiry.
[snip]
Officially you can only count time as Pilot in Command (PIC) or
Pilot under Training (PUT) in a single pilot aeroplane. However, recently
pilots under going test or checks have logged Pilot in Command under
Supervision for things like IMC Flight Tests, LPC and PPL(A) Skill Tests.
JAR-FCL 1.080 details the logging of flight time, can I refer you and your
flying school to this for a definitive answer.
I trust the above has clarified the current requirements. If you have any
further questions relating to this email please visit our website or
alternatively, please contact your Customer Service Team on 01293 573700.
Yours sincerely
Justin Willcocks
Licensing Operations
It still stands that the dual training flight requirement must obviously be logged as put because otherwise it is not a 'dual training flight' by definition.
Joined: May 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 27,397
Likes: 857
From: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Typical unhelpful CAA reply.
When will that bunch in the Belgrano learn to answer a question clearly and unambiguously. The reply you received merely said 'We suggest you look in the book'.......
The JAR website contains poorly indexed pdf documents which again are not specific......
When will that bunch in the Belgrano learn to answer a question clearly and unambiguously. The reply you received merely said 'We suggest you look in the book'.......
The JAR website contains poorly indexed pdf documents which again are not specific......
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 132
Likes: 0
From: Newcastle upon Tyne UK
slim slag
From your attitude it seems you believe you have nothing to learn from an instructional flight.
Frankly I am surprised any instructor would want to fly with you in any capacity, let alone "sign you off"!
From your attitude it seems you believe you have nothing to learn from an instructional flight.
Frankly I am surprised any instructor would want to fly with you in any capacity, let alone "sign you off"!
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,981
Likes: 0
From: He's on the limb to nowhere
Martini
From your attitude it seems you believe you have nothing to learn from an instructional flight.
Well, that is quite an incorrect summary of my beliefs, so I should explain it better.
I learn something from every flight, be it solo, with an instructor on my right, or a student/certificated pilot on my left. Or behind or in front of me
Instructors have several roles, sometimes it to (hopefully) impart some knowledge to the other person, sometimes it's purely to assess the other persons flying ability. It would not be uncommon that during the second kind of flight, I would learn more from the person I am assessing than he/she does from me. It's very common during the first.
Anyway, this thread is about logging practices, not learning practices. I just think that to blindly say an instructor is always in command of a flight is oversimplifying a complex relationship.
Frankly I am surprised any instructor would want to fly with you in any capacity, let alone "sign you off"!
Seeing as you have no idea of my personal situation that is a foolish thing to say. I can put my hand on my heart and promise that you would be totally utterly surprised
From your attitude it seems you believe you have nothing to learn from an instructional flight.
Well, that is quite an incorrect summary of my beliefs, so I should explain it better.
I learn something from every flight, be it solo, with an instructor on my right, or a student/certificated pilot on my left. Or behind or in front of me
Instructors have several roles, sometimes it to (hopefully) impart some knowledge to the other person, sometimes it's purely to assess the other persons flying ability. It would not be uncommon that during the second kind of flight, I would learn more from the person I am assessing than he/she does from me. It's very common during the first.
Anyway, this thread is about logging practices, not learning practices. I just think that to blindly say an instructor is always in command of a flight is oversimplifying a complex relationship.
Frankly I am surprised any instructor would want to fly with you in any capacity, let alone "sign you off"!
Seeing as you have no idea of my personal situation that is a foolish thing to say. I can put my hand on my heart and promise that you would be totally utterly surprised
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 563
Likes: 1
From: queensland australia
if you blokes can't even figure out how to log your flying hours honestly and accurately by now you should give the game away.
how can you hold a licence and not know the rules of this basic task.
if these posts are an indication of the jar's and how they work then i can only hope that the rest of the world is not infected with this virulent strain of nonsense.
i will use this thread to demonstrate to our authority how the introduction of any form of the jar's would be detrimental to aviation.
how can you hold a licence and not know the rules of this basic task.
if these posts are an indication of the jar's and how they work then i can only hope that the rest of the world is not infected with this virulent strain of nonsense.
i will use this thread to demonstrate to our authority how the introduction of any form of the jar's would be detrimental to aviation.
