Radio failure at the hold
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Radio failure at the hold
Heres a question for you!, imagine you have just completed your power checks at the hold at a busy international airport, say like Bristol or Birmingham. As you call for departure you realise both box 1 and box 2 have now failed. Unfortunately its a nice day and the whole world and his wife are now piling up behind you waiting for you to call.
So what would you do?
So what would you do?
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Check volumes
Check headset
Check connections
Check P2 instead
Try my spare Headset
Check electrics...
Set radio failure on the transponder...
Try attracting attention by flashing lights in an obvious manner...
Stop the prop...(!) many people notice this one....
And sit and wait for the 'Follow Me' Van....which *will* come for you....
Thats my thoughts...whatever you do you do not enter the runway or get airborne - even of cleared to TO...way too dangerous in busy airspace.
As far as I am concerned they can wait. No pressure on me.....its a flight safety issue pure and simple and as flight safety is no1 they can all sit and twiddle their thumbs....max delay is gonna be what 5-10mins....so what? Better than endangering myself or the aircraft...
Thats my take on it
Check headset
Check connections
Check P2 instead
Try my spare Headset
Check electrics...
Set radio failure on the transponder...
Try attracting attention by flashing lights in an obvious manner...
Stop the prop...(!) many people notice this one....
And sit and wait for the 'Follow Me' Van....which *will* come for you....
Thats my thoughts...whatever you do you do not enter the runway or get airborne - even of cleared to TO...way too dangerous in busy airspace.
As far as I am concerned they can wait. No pressure on me.....its a flight safety issue pure and simple and as flight safety is no1 they can all sit and twiddle their thumbs....max delay is gonna be what 5-10mins....so what? Better than endangering myself or the aircraft...
Thats my take on it
Last edited by FormationFlyer; 31st Jul 2002 at 10:22.
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MJR,
As FormationFlyer says, but also keep a look out for light signals from the Control Tower. Many airfileds, including the busy international ones still have an Aldids lamp.
As FormationFlyer says, but also keep a look out for light signals from the Control Tower. Many airfileds, including the busy international ones still have an Aldids lamp.
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Thats easy S & L because after:
Check volumes
Check headset
Check connections
Check P2 instead
Try my spare Headset
Check electrics...
blah blah blah
You cant hear anything.
Perhaps I should express this is a hyperthetical situation where if it can go wrong it will.
With regard to the "Aldids lamp" I presume this is one of those things that John Mills would have used to signal HMS Blahblah in an old war film. If such a device did exist what could you deduce from signals. Will it be a morse equivalent of "what the f*** are you doing" or something different?
What if you were cleared past a Cat IIIb hold and someone has now decided to to do a precision approach due to worsening weather conditions, 5 to 10 minutes delay may become significant.
Check volumes
Check headset
Check connections
Check P2 instead
Try my spare Headset
Check electrics...
blah blah blah
You cant hear anything.
Perhaps I should express this is a hyperthetical situation where if it can go wrong it will.
With regard to the "Aldids lamp" I presume this is one of those things that John Mills would have used to signal HMS Blahblah in an old war film. If such a device did exist what could you deduce from signals. Will it be a morse equivalent of "what the f*** are you doing" or something different?
What if you were cleared past a Cat IIIb hold and someone has now decided to to do a precision approach due to worsening weather conditions, 5 to 10 minutes delay may become significant.
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The aldis lamp signals are hard to remember, hard to see and you have to be in view of the tower to see them anyway...not always possible at certain holding points....and whilst they may be able to signal to you 'return to your starting point' they cant tell you via what taxyway - given the a/c behind you - you are stuffed. So I dont think the aldis lamps in this situation will help ....but its a good thought...
If you have done a night rating your instructor should have ensured that you have seen the aldis lamps...(which are more useful in the air than on the ground...) if you havent next time you are flying at night ask the control tower to use the lamps (I do this as routine on every night qualification I teach), and dont forget a good many control towers are happy to have a quick visit from a pilot who wants to see what on earth is going in the 'small box'!
Hope this helps.
If you have done a night rating your instructor should have ensured that you have seen the aldis lamps...(which are more useful in the air than on the ground...) if you havent next time you are flying at night ask the control tower to use the lamps (I do this as routine on every night qualification I teach), and dont forget a good many control towers are happy to have a quick visit from a pilot who wants to see what on earth is going in the 'small box'!
Hope this helps.
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As for the 'past cat IIIb'...well if you are IFR in controlled airspace you *cannot* get airborne full stop. So aldis lamps or none you cannot enter the runway.
If past cat IIIb - you could take to the grass - but I think thats a silly idea - big a/d arent that careful about their grassy bits....so not worth the risk...
If you are past a cat iiib hold then you were cleared to enter the runway AFAIK because when low vis ops are in progress the last hold before the runway will be the catiii hold thus you wont be in that situation. However, it really is up to ATC to sort it out. My advice is stop where you are still. The guy thats airborne 'that just decided to do an approach' must have enough fuel for the go-around anyway....but when push comes to shove...you stay clear of the active runway and wait for someone to pull you out of the mire!
Well I think that makes sense anyway...
If past cat IIIb - you could take to the grass - but I think thats a silly idea - big a/d arent that careful about their grassy bits....so not worth the risk...
If you are past a cat iiib hold then you were cleared to enter the runway AFAIK because when low vis ops are in progress the last hold before the runway will be the catiii hold thus you wont be in that situation. However, it really is up to ATC to sort it out. My advice is stop where you are still. The guy thats airborne 'that just decided to do an approach' must have enough fuel for the go-around anyway....but when push comes to shove...you stay clear of the active runway and wait for someone to pull you out of the mire!
Well I think that makes sense anyway...
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This happened to me (albeit at a not-quite-so-busy airport). I was cleared to enter the RWY (but not t/o). I flashed my landing lights & nav lights, made a 180 and returned to the ramp. Gave the tower a ring to explain, they said "thank you, we figured that's what had happened".
As for the Aldis lamp, at Luxembourg tower the controller who showed us the never-been-used lamp looked a little bit confused when he took it out of its box and plugged it in. Apparently these things are more or less useless!
As for the Aldis lamp, at Luxembourg tower the controller who showed us the never-been-used lamp looked a little bit confused when he took it out of its box and plugged it in. Apparently these things are more or less useless!
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FormationFlyer
While Aldis Lamp signals may be hard to remember, they are included in the ANO Rule 47 and while an in depth knowledge may not be required, it would certainly be an advantage to carry some sort of reference should they be required. All the ATC units I have worked at have had the various signals and their meanings attached to the lamp itself. Do not forget, it is not just aircraft that can suffer r/t failure, ATC can have them as well from time to time.
If you are at the hold with aircraft behind and you receive a return to staring point signal, you can take this as a clearance to enter the runway if this is the only route possible. ATC would have worked this out already and your route via the runway will be safeguarded.
WX Man
I would not be so fast to write off 'old technology' so quickly. While an Aldids Lamp may be of limited use at large airports like Heathrow, I have used one on numerous occassions in anger, which has saved a pilot having to adopt the 'bogoff' procedure.
While Aldis Lamp signals may be hard to remember, they are included in the ANO Rule 47 and while an in depth knowledge may not be required, it would certainly be an advantage to carry some sort of reference should they be required. All the ATC units I have worked at have had the various signals and their meanings attached to the lamp itself. Do not forget, it is not just aircraft that can suffer r/t failure, ATC can have them as well from time to time.
If you are at the hold with aircraft behind and you receive a return to staring point signal, you can take this as a clearance to enter the runway if this is the only route possible. ATC would have worked this out already and your route via the runway will be safeguarded.
WX Man
I would not be so fast to write off 'old technology' so quickly. While an Aldids Lamp may be of limited use at large airports like Heathrow, I have used one on numerous occassions in anger, which has saved a pilot having to adopt the 'bogoff' procedure.
I thought this had actually happened to me earlier this week. Sort of going through the above checks I quickly discovered that I had accidentally switched off the comms master switch with my map.
A few months ago I had a genuine transmitter failure returning to eghh and, although ATC quickly established that I could hear them (squawked 7600), they also used light signals to confirm landing clearance and then to taxi clear. I must confess that, in the stress of the moment, I did not look for light signals and only noticed them by chance, even though it was quite dull with low cloud. Had they given me anything but an obvious green light I would probably have struggled to remember what to do.
A few months ago I had a genuine transmitter failure returning to eghh and, although ATC quickly established that I could hear them (squawked 7600), they also used light signals to confirm landing clearance and then to taxi clear. I must confess that, in the stress of the moment, I did not look for light signals and only noticed them by chance, even though it was quite dull with low cloud. Had they given me anything but an obvious green light I would probably have struggled to remember what to do.
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While Aldis Lamp signals may be hard to remember, they are included in the ANO Rule 47 and while an in depth knowledge may not be required, it would certainly be an advantage to carry some sort of reference should they be required.
I also recommend CAP637 Visual Aids Handbook....everyone should buy a copy - its dead cheap and a handy reference. I do encourage my night qualification students to invest but sadly im an instructor and not salesman and I doubt many invest! ho hum...I do try!!
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Try your kneeboard
If you can't remember the signals, check out the printing on your kneeboard - mine has morse code, light signals, interception procedures and other such stuff on it
All this Aldis Lamp gobbledygook could be easily avoided by quickly plugging into your standby handheld VHF tx/rx !
I had complete radio failure on a dark and windswept apron (CAS) late one night and, with smug relief, reached into my bag for said radio .. only to realise, most unsatisfactorily, that I had left it on battery charge 200 nm away !
Do as I say, not as I do ..............
I had complete radio failure on a dark and windswept apron (CAS) late one night and, with smug relief, reached into my bag for said radio .. only to realise, most unsatisfactorily, that I had left it on battery charge 200 nm away !
Do as I say, not as I do ..............
Moderator
Presuming you are in a lighty,
Try the hand mike, or the trusty mobile phone...but a large percentage of radio failures can be attributed to finger (or kneeboard) trouble! Know your aeroplane....We had an old boy recently return to base complaining of radio failure...he was trying to transmit using the autopilot disconnect button.
Seriously though, learn your lights.
Try the hand mike, or the trusty mobile phone...but a large percentage of radio failures can be attributed to finger (or kneeboard) trouble! Know your aeroplane....We had an old boy recently return to base complaining of radio failure...he was trying to transmit using the autopilot disconnect button.
Seriously though, learn your lights.
radio failure
You can also use your Emergency Beacon,assuming you carry one!
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Re: Radio failure at the hold
MJR,
NORDO at the hold short line, first of all it happens, but luckily not that often. Before you make any snide comments about the controllers not answering you, make sure you don't have a hot mic, talk about being embarrassed when they play the tape back for you.
First, DO NOT taxi onto the runway (bad idea). If there are acft in line behind you, and if you have room to turn, and the taxiway is wide enough move off to the side as much as possible so that other acft can taxi by. Signal to the other acft that your radios have failed and hopefully they will notify the tower or ground control for you. If you can move off to the side and you are in a prop shutting off your engine will let the tower know that you have a problem. If this works either ground will hold up other acft so that you can taxi back to the ramp or they will send someone out to escort you back.
If the above isn't an option and IF you can see the tower you can watch for flashing green light (signal for taxiing) and then taxi back to the ramp. I still recommend not going out onto the runway.
If you have no choice about going onto the runway LOOK VERY CAREFULLY FOR ANY ACFT THAT MAY BE ON FINAL, and ONLY IF YOU RECIEVE A FLASHING GREEN LIGHT FROM THE TOWER and only if you don't see anyone on final, then very quickly taxi down the runway and clear at the first taxiway. Again DO NOT enter the runway without either an escort or a signal from the tower.
When you get back to the ramp give a phone call to the tower, explain what happened. The majority of the times that I've encountered this situation the acft had a hot mic and didn't realize it.
Mike
FWA
NORDO at the hold short line, first of all it happens, but luckily not that often. Before you make any snide comments about the controllers not answering you, make sure you don't have a hot mic, talk about being embarrassed when they play the tape back for you.
First, DO NOT taxi onto the runway (bad idea). If there are acft in line behind you, and if you have room to turn, and the taxiway is wide enough move off to the side as much as possible so that other acft can taxi by. Signal to the other acft that your radios have failed and hopefully they will notify the tower or ground control for you. If you can move off to the side and you are in a prop shutting off your engine will let the tower know that you have a problem. If this works either ground will hold up other acft so that you can taxi back to the ramp or they will send someone out to escort you back.
If the above isn't an option and IF you can see the tower you can watch for flashing green light (signal for taxiing) and then taxi back to the ramp. I still recommend not going out onto the runway.
If you have no choice about going onto the runway LOOK VERY CAREFULLY FOR ANY ACFT THAT MAY BE ON FINAL, and ONLY IF YOU RECIEVE A FLASHING GREEN LIGHT FROM THE TOWER and only if you don't see anyone on final, then very quickly taxi down the runway and clear at the first taxiway. Again DO NOT enter the runway without either an escort or a signal from the tower.
When you get back to the ramp give a phone call to the tower, explain what happened. The majority of the times that I've encountered this situation the acft had a hot mic and didn't realize it.
Mike
FWA
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I agree with the initial replies. In my experience if you are holding short and the radio's won't work it is probably a result of pilot brain failure rather than radio failure. At least that was the reason the time it hapened to me at a very busy intl airport during the Friday afternoon rush hour :o . However I can add a few other things to think about.
- Is there side tone in the headset. If there is you are almost certainly transmitting and can make a blind call to tower on what your intentions are, they will appreciate it.
- Check to make sure the mike/ptt jack is all the way in. If it is half way out your mike will be HOT. I learned this the hard way when I commented on the big Ta Ta's of the dispacher , on the air
- Carry a hand held ( with alkaline bateries and a headset adapter). The reality is any comm failure in busy airspace really screws up ATC and your fellow airman.
- Is there side tone in the headset. If there is you are almost certainly transmitting and can make a blind call to tower on what your intentions are, they will appreciate it.
- Check to make sure the mike/ptt jack is all the way in. If it is half way out your mike will be HOT. I learned this the hard way when I commented on the big Ta Ta's of the dispacher , on the air
- Carry a hand held ( with alkaline bateries and a headset adapter). The reality is any comm failure in busy airspace really screws up ATC and your fellow airman.
