Flying Instructors who refuse to spin

[vector4fun]

My experiences:

I was taught spins in an aerobat with 'chutes, and that's the way I would prefer to teach them if asked. (Something aerobatic and with chutes.) At the college I used to work at, we had a dozen or so C-150/152s and a single PA38. One older 150 was the designated "spin bird", because they didn't want to keep buying gyros for the rest of the fleet. Instructors/students caught spinning one of the newer birds could expect to cough up the cost of an overhauled AH if they returned to the ramp with one tumbled.

We were prohibited from spinning the PA38 as well. I most certainly remember the tail wagging quite eagerly during stalls. IIRC, there was an AD for an extra brace on the vertical stab spar because of cracking on the first year models. Later years had the brace installed at the factory. It was an excellent X-country trainer though, more comfortable than the Cessnas for larger folks. I believe the stall/spin accident rate for the PA38 is double that for other common US trainers according to NTSB.

Though it never happened to me in my training, when I started instructing, I did learn that just when you thought a 150 was as tame as an elderly housecat, it would occasionally flick inverted during accelerated stalls.

One drill my original instructor used, which has stuck with me to this day is to have the student put hands in lap while instructor apply (nearly) full aft elevator and neutral aileron. Have student keep wings approximately level with rudder alone. Aircraft gently bucks and rocks in/out of a mild power off stall. Most benign GA aircraft won't spin if you don't let them yaw. We did this in a J-3 while slowly descending 2-3000'. Works well in the Cessnas, sometimes requiring almost full rudder to maintain wings level in turbulence.

[hugh flung_dung]

vector4fun said:

One drill my original instructor used, which has stuck with me to this day is to have the student put hands in lap while instructor apply (nearly) full aft elevator and neutral aileron. Have student keep wings approximately level with rudder alone. Aircraft gently bucks and rocks in/out of a mild power off stall.

- I've never seen the point of this, what does the student learn?
At ab initio they need to be able to recognise and recover from: the approach to the stall, the full stall, the spiral dive (and ideally the spin). Where does "holding the aircraft stalled and using rudder to keep the wings level" fit into this? I agree that you want them to be able to deal correctly with a wing drop at the stall but the error that needs to be trained out of them is using aileron - having hands in the lap doesn't achieve this.

Most benign GA aircraft won't spin if you don't let them yaw.

Yaw, wingdrop or some other cause of asymmetric angle of attack is required for any aircraft to spin.

PostScript, added 28/Apr.
Maybe the idea is that the student puts their hands in the instructor's lap there might be some merit in this with the occasional stude.

[greeners]

Yes - I know a CFI like that....

[Vee One...Rotate]

Still early days of PPL training. I was asked if I was happy to do it and I said yes so my instructor demonstrated a couple and then I did two or three. As well as being a good giggle, I think it does make you more confident in the a/c and your own abilities, despite it not being a mandatory part of the PPL course.

V1R

[What time is ECT?]

My first spin was in a fully developed wing-drop stall - SOLO! I was thus wide awake in the C152 aerobat. Exit spin 500ft later, as others will tell. Now officially rated for the spin, but it should be compulsary for all pilots.

ECT

[LocoDriver]

Glad you are enjoying your spinning 'what time is ect'
I must be the silly instructor who rated yoo!
its fun, isn't it. especially when you are EXPECTING to spin.
ZK-DAN(the man) enjoys it too!, BUT I didnt have the pleasure in rating him, a certain flight examiner pulled rank!
ZK-JBL(The Aerobat) is a great little spinner!
BUT, guys, be warned, they are not all nice and docile and predictable like this one!(The Aerobat, not the instructor)
Be VERY careful when spinning, stay current, stay high, and keep a GOOD lookout!
We share the airspace with Big Burp, and MattyJ.
Signed, YOUR instructor!

[Commander]

reasoning from the bottom of my pants

"I'd rather be a live mouse then a dead lion" is one of my favorite quotations. The reason for me not willing to demo spins for my students are;
1. Training needed
2. Low time instructor
3. Haven't done a spin since 1992
4. Didn't recieve spin training during my FI/A training nor CPL

Although; I do teach spin entry demos and spiral desents, but a full spin - not for now... but want to be able though.

[Send Clowns]

Didn't receive spin training in the FI course? Where did you do that? Seemed to me a vital part, as to demonstrate safely whilst pattering it demands the most care in the set up, especially that nasty one from the fouled-up go-around that the Cessnas particularly keen to show you. May just be that my FI instructor (one of the most highly-qualified in the country) just happens to enjoy spinning - in fact I know he does - but I genuinely saw it important, even having spun a lot before.

Get up and spin! Come to England, we'll go and autorotate until you enjoy it

[Flik Roll]

Question for you instructors...sorry if it's been asked:

As a PPL can i spin solo? I did spinning during my PPL course and loved it, and have done the Spin/Aeros bit of EFT but we aren't allowed to spin solo; but can I in civvy land?

[Send Clowns]

Nothing in the rules against it if the aircraft is cleared and all precautions taken (use the military method of calculating spin height, it is safer than what some civvy instructors teach!). Careful thoguh, and talk to a club instructor before you do so. I first entered an intentional spin as captain of the aircraft when I was an instructor.

[Decent in Descent]

Top Tips for untrained spinners.

1. Wear a parachute.
2. Calculate a Minimum Abandonment Height (MAH)/Altitude.
3. If aircraft has not recovered from spin at MAH, jettison airframe.
4. Refer to point 1.

[Flik Roll]

Having done both mil and civvy, civvy always seems so gash!
I always feel a little uneasy without a chute!

[hugh flung_dung]

FLIK ROLL, there's nothing in the rules against solo spinning provided you follow the usual safety rules.

Some words of caution:
No two spins are exactly the same.
Some aircraft are very sensitive to stick position and have interesting spin modes; ... make sure an instructor has shown you any surprises that your particular type may have in store for you before you spin solo.
Wear a parachute, pre-plan your abandonment height and remember to check the altimeter as part of the recovery.

Spinning is great fun but needs to be treated with a little more caution than some other aspects of aviation; why not do an aeros course?

HFD

[Flik Roll]

I got checked out for solo and pax aeros last year and love it, but for some reason I didn't cover spinning?
The aircraft I fly in civvy land if fully aerobatic and I have spun in it before (a long time ago!) so plan to go and get checked out. There are no chutes for this aircraft - what are the regs on having your own with regards servicing and packing?

[foxmoth]

I got checked out for solo and pax aeros last year and love it,but for some reason I didn't cover spinning?

No aeros instructor I know would check someone out for aeros without covering spinning, this and recovery from unusual attitudes I consider more important than actually being able to carry out the manouvers properly

[Flik Roll]

It did involve recover from unusual attitudes etc etc. but no spin. Bearing in mind I had the same instructor for what I did of the PPL course who had covered spinning with me about 5 months prior and covered spinning with me previously. Shows how gash civvy world is im afraid! I always feel under a greater workload in civvy land due to the, how can you put it...lower airmanship standards of many pilots; just in the circuit alone; and out in the big wide world im afraid it's even worse.

To keep this on topic, spinning in full should be taught to every PPL stude. Ijust can't believe that there are people out there with licenses who have never recovered from a spin or even seen what one looks like. Not to mention the people that think they might go and 'try' some aeros Like some guy at GWC as few years back who stuffed a Robin in.

And foxmouth, I agree wholly with you - recovery from the vertical, inverted and other unusual attitudes is far more important. Safety in the air is paramount, perfection comes through safe practise over time.

[foxmoth]

Not to mention the people that think they might go and 'try' some aeros Like some guy at GWC as few years back who stuffed a Robin in.

This chap had actually been properly taught Aeros having done a full AOPA course (not by me but I know the instructor who taught him). His problem was that he decided to ignore what he had been taught about safe heights and try things at low level You can only teach people how to do it - afterwards you cannot make them follow what you have taught

[Flik Roll]

Yeh I know...I fly from GWC

and re-iterates my point on gashness...

[hugh flung_dung]

Flik Roll,
:Rant on.
I'm appalled that an aeros course or checkout did not include spinning! That's gross negligence on the part of the instructor in my (not so humble) opinion and a good opening for your family lawyer if ever you have the misfortune to have a terminally unpleasant experience that involves (or might have involved, m'lud) a spin.
:rant off.

The AOPA course includes precision spins (normally 1.5 turns) and both "academic" spin and spin avoidance but I normally also include spins from a bad roll off the top and a bad stall turn, plus a demo of recovery from aggravated/accelerated spins.
Post-AOPA we get into spins from flick rolls and various other fun areas.

EGLS isn't a million miles from GWC so get in touch if you want to extend your comfort zone.

AFAIK there are no regs for private-use emergency 'chutes in the UK.

HFD

[Flik Roll]

I'm appalled too and being 'niave' to flying at the time I didn't think!
It wasn't the AOPA course I did...

(Now far more aware and a lot less niave)