Training on the Grob 120 TP

[anchorhold]

I interested if any one on here has conducted ab initio training on the Grob 120 TP, of which the RAF has 23 on order. It looks a cracking aircraft.

On the RAF website, they are claiming it will make a smother transition onto training for heavies, helicopters and fast jet.

So here is the question, having looked at the Grob website as far as I can see, they is no standby analogue instruments such as AI, ASI, TC. It looks to me like there is a just a standby EFIS PFD.

So my questions are:

(a) What happens is there is a total loss of electrical power?

(b) Could a lightening strike take out all electronic displays, then what?

(c) Should all ab intio pilots be trained in instrument scanning (T scan) on analogue displays first, because I would say that should be the grounding before flying EFIS PFDS although this will not happen with the MPA licence.

One of the things paramount in air safety is redundancy in instruments, or other systems for that matter. So the philosopy , not held by all, if you have a vacumn failure then its limited panel, and relying on electrically driven TC and presure instruments. I remember I had a TC failure in IMC which left me no option but to return to base, because I would have no options if the vacumn system failed. From memory the RAF Chipmunks could not fly in IMC as I remember the turn and slip and AI both ran of the vacumn pump, I think the Bulldog had an electric TC, vacumn AI.

[Sleeve Wing]

Grob 120TP

I think the Bulldog had an electric TC, vacumn (sic) AI.[/QUOTE]

Correct .....and the (electric) TC seems to fail more than the (vacuum) AI !

Agree that the old selective radial “scan” on FP and fallback LP appears favorite to we oldies.
Remember “uNdershoot North and overShoot South” ?
But things have moved on and so must we. The glass cockpit is King. All you need now is STBY AI and ASI. Tempus fugit.

[ACW599]

Originally Posted by anchorhold

From memory the RAF Chipmunks could not fly in IMC as I remember the turn and slip and AI both ran of the vacumn pump

Interesting; all my initial instrument flying training in a Chipmunk took place in solid IMC. The QFIs often carried out PAR and SAR approaches in actual IMC too.

[anchorhold]

ACW599....Roughly when did you do your training in IMC, because I feel sure the RAF policy changed along the way.

[ACW599]

Originally Posted by anchorhold

ACW599....Roughly when did you do your training in IMC, because I feel sure the RAF policy changed along the way.

On UWAS in late 1973.

[anchorhold]

that must have been pre pottle and hunt?

[BEagle]

UAS IMC?

I did as much IF training as possible on the Bulldog in IMC; that was in the period 1990-1993.

When flying IMC with other QFI's students, it was all too obvious which of them had been doing most of their IF in 'simulated' conditions.

Some QFIs were utter wimps when it came to IF though. One of my colleagues wouldn't fly aeros above 8/8 cloud in case he had to descend with a toppled AH using the T&S Why did he think we were tested on the use of limited panel?

[Dan Winterland]

From memory the RAF Chipmunks could not fly in IMC as I remember the turn and slip and AI both ran of the vacumn pump

Interesting; all my initial instrument flying training in a Chipmunk took place in solid IMC. The QFIs often carried out PAR and SAR approaches in actual IMC too.

Roughly when did you do your training in IMC, because I feel sure the RAF policy changed along the way.

There was no restriction in the RAF regarding IF flying on one power source for the instruments. EFTS at Swinderby were flying their Chipmunks IMC until 1993.

[A and C]

With reference to the lightning strike questions as no Grob that I know of has suffered it is difficult to assess the likely damage except by looking at aircraft with similar construction.

late last year a DA42 encountered a lightning strike over the Channel Islands the strike entered at one wing tip destroying the winglet and exiting from the other wing tip resulting in enough damage to render that winglet BER. The electrical charge damaged the aileron system making it stiff to operate and various areas of structure suffered burn damage that will be expensive to repair but not bad enough to comprimise the structure. However the avionic system continued to operate normally . ( think that one of the engines FADEC controled shut its self down but I can’t conferm this )

I can only congratulate the crew who recovered the aircraft to Alderney airport after what must have been a very distressing flight.

The type of construction of the Grob and DA42 are identical and an identical standard of lightning protection is employed so I would expect it to behave in a similar manor to the DA42 However anyone encountering a lightning strike in the GROB has the additional level of safety that the bang seat offers.

[WASALOADIE]

The standby instrument is an Electronic Integrated Standby Instrument (EISI) and is battery powered for which the emergency/standby battery must be able to provide power for at least 30 minutes.

Very few (if any) vacuum powered instruments nowadays, the gyros have been replaced with Ring Laser Gyros, Optical and vibrating gyros all electrical powered. (multiple electrical power sources.

[paulo]

anchorhold

”

• Primary flight display (PFD) in digital flight deck variant features tapes display or round dial display being unique for this class of trainer aircraft”

[DaveUnwin]

Hi A&C, I think the MB Mk-17 seat is an option. The one I flew at the factory didn't have them, not sure if the RAF's do.