Teaching cabin crew?

[blue up]

I've been a UK ATPL for maaaany years and have taught CRM as well. I was asked recently about whether I would like to teach some Cabin Crew topics. I've struggled with the internet whilst trying to find out if it is a requirement to have been active and qualified CC before becoming a CC initial instructor.

Any ideas??

Thanks.

[Homsap]

I would say certain CRM subjects are best taught by cabin crew and certain are best taught by pilots, some subjects can be taught by both pilots and cabin crew and pilots. Are you talking about joint CRM training with both cabin crew and pilots. I should add. and I am sure it was a slip, CRM is facilitated not taught.

[blue up]

I should have re-read the original post before I hit the button.

The new job would be to teach cabin crew initials in no only CRM but all that they are required to learn in order to become qualified to act as CC. Is it a requirement to have been CC myself in order to teach it or can 15 years teaching refreshers be a valid skill set under the eyes of EASA?

[Laarbruch72]

In the UK you need some form of teaching qualification (such as PTLLS) or an equivalent to teach initial and recurrent to cabin crew. "Equivalent" has a very broad interpretation, and your airline's Train the Trainer course is sufficient for any regulator that I know of in the EU (including the UK) as it stands right now. There are moves afoot in the UK to make PTLLS a minimum but that's been knocking on for a few years and it's no closer still.
Your Head of Training is the person to check with, you shouldn't have to hunt around the internet, he / she will have it in black and white.
There's no regulatory requirement to have been active cabin crew in order to teach cabin crew, but the company will have to ensure that they can demonstrate competency of their instructors and each airline will have their own way of doing that.

[blue up]

Thanks. The boss is away, hence the need for the search.

Ta.

[Homsap]

laarbruck72....... I would be very surprised if the UK CAA would ever engage in training qualifications such as PGCE, PTTLS or 7407 (no longer exists) because the CAA will never engage with other educational bodies. I have argued in the past that a FI rating has no status outside aviation, which is wrong. If I wanted to run a PPL ground in a flying school I can as an instructor, but if I did the same training in a college of FE i would probably need PGCE or PTTLS.

I should also add that PGCE, PTTLS and 7407, is more about training people to teach or lecture, I would say CRM training requires facilitation skils. I have to say previously I contracted someone who had previously worked for the Machester Business School, to run a two day course 'Facilitating groups in Hunan Factors Training', this was attended by both cabin crew CRM trainers and pilot CRM trainers prior to developing their own CRM modules.

Blue Up, In relation to your original question question I would speak to your CP or head of training standards, head of cabin crew services and FOI. I also have a question, is the CC intial CRM conducted without pilots attending?

[Laarbruch72]

Homsap.

Sorry, you're waffling with no knowledge of the subject. Little of what you say makes sense. The OP (Blue Up) has already stated why he can't contact his head of training, so I tried to provide a useful answer.

The UK CAA wouldn't engage in training qualifications of any type with educational bodies since they're not really the regulator, they're the enforcement body when it comes to training. The UK DfT and the European Commission are the regulators. Nobody mentioned PGCE or 7407 until you... PTLLS was used only as an example of competency that may be recognised by the EU and the UK DfT.

It's really down to the airline how they prove competency. I speak as an airline manager with 5 years direct input to cabin crew training at a UK carrier, and with direct contact with the UK DfT and the EU Commission.

[blue up]

Update.

My company had a stipulation from the Ops inspector written in to the Ops manual that any CC trainers had to have been active CC whereas a well known large British Airline doesn't have the same rule.

So, no CC experience means I can't teach. Ho-hum.

[BEagle]

Experience as CC?

Or experience of CC?

[Homsap]

Blue Up....... From my experience of FOIs you sometime need to challenge them in respect of who can train who, what they can train and likewise the course content. I can think of one large airline who's main CRM trainer for aircrew was not even pilot or CC, to my knowledge. But she did have a nice pair of legs. From my experience, I can think of few occassions, when I did not manage to change a FOIs decision in respect of CRM training issues.

I would say there is no reason why a pilot can not teach CRM to CC, but it would be best facilitated by both a pilot and cabin crew. Equally, it is preferable in my opinion on CC CM courses, subjects such as error, SOPs, operations and automation are facilitated by a pilot.

My suggestion is, if you put a strong case together, discuss it with your airlines head of training standards, when he or she is back, and put it back to the FOI. I wolud say if you suggest each CRM is facilitated jointly by CC and a pilot, it would strenthen your case.

You might want to put the question as to why another airline can use pilots to teach CRM, what the difference, but that might put the FOIs back up.

[blue up]

Well, I haven't actually got any formal job offer yet so I'm not really in a position to make too many waves. I think that having taught CC and Pilot CRM, taught doors, security, safety reporting etc I should be a suitable person to teach the elements of CC Accreditation since there isn't anything much on one of those courses that I haven't taught before. It would only be a couple of days per month to keep me from bankrupcy and dying of 'Retirement Boredom'.