Reduced Flap setting in Gusty x-Wind Conditions
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FormationFlyer
Oh and a word on wing down technique...it doesnt encessarily mean the wing is 'down'. As I just said unless the X-Wind becomes extreme the a/c actually remains wings level - even though you have aileron applied.
What you are describing is a 'boat turn', keeping the wings level and using rudder to 'turn' the plane. This will work for a bit, but eventually the relative wind from the side will turn the plane and you will end up in a sort of crab. If you don't get it right you will stress the gear. It doesn't matter if the crosswind is strong or not, you should always apply the same principles to landing. It's far far far better to land on the upwind wheel with wing down.
The only planes this doesn't work with are jets with engines strapped under their wings. They have to land using a rudder/aileron technique with wings level, but it's a last second maneuver and not needed for GA planes.
cheers
Oh and a word on wing down technique...it doesnt encessarily mean the wing is 'down'. As I just said unless the X-Wind becomes extreme the a/c actually remains wings level - even though you have aileron applied.
What you are describing is a 'boat turn', keeping the wings level and using rudder to 'turn' the plane. This will work for a bit, but eventually the relative wind from the side will turn the plane and you will end up in a sort of crab. If you don't get it right you will stress the gear. It doesn't matter if the crosswind is strong or not, you should always apply the same principles to landing. It's far far far better to land on the upwind wheel with wing down.
The only planes this doesn't work with are jets with engines strapped under their wings. They have to land using a rudder/aileron technique with wings level, but it's a last second maneuver and not needed for GA planes.
cheers
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If you arrive at your destination with that little fuel you are negligent. Probably an old wives tail anyway, and I said you should crab on early final. Slipping is for landing.
I think you may have possibly misunderstood me in reference to the slip v's crab...
The slip technique is a good instructional technique but shouldn't be used as a rule in the course of general flying for the reasons I mentioned.
Something I stupidly failed to mention above was that a slip in turbulence imposes a significant rolling 'g' on the wing... another excellent reason never to slip in turbulent conditions - (on topic now) especially with flap. Simply put, when slipping it takes a lesser force to overstress the aircraft in conditions where continous forces are imposed!
When doing Engineering, our first lesson was to apply a design that would cater for the improper handling of the pilot rather than conditions. Do you really think that the twisting moment applied to an aircraft (in a slip) over the course of a few thousand hours is a good thing? Aircraft are certainly over-engineered but that's to cater for pilots who fly an aeroplane in a manner akin to what you're endorsing.
...it takes zero time to go from uncoordinated flight to coordinated flight, it's not an issue.
The only planes this doesn't work with are jets with engines strapped under their wings. They have to land using a rudder/aileron technique with wings level, but it's a last second manoeuvre and not needed for GA planes.
This technique is a product of company policy. Many airlines still use the slip on the landing but will never ever use it on the approach. I have a Boeing recommendation here - will post a URL shortly for those interested.
Last edited by Turbine; 10th Jun 2002 at 06:07.
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Turbine
Sorry if I misunderstood. You appear to imply that side-slipping to landing is a big no-no in a crosswind, bumpy or not.
I don't think slipping an airplane is misflying it, and I will buy you beer all night if you can find me a trainer which has been slipped 'over the course of a few thousand hours'. How long am I advocating you sideslip on an approach? 30 seconds max perhaps? That's a lot of approaches. The wing spars would be knacked well before you get to your thousands of hours in the slip.
I think landing using a technique which applies a significant side force on the wheels is bad practice and will cause a lot more damage/death/injuries than engine failures on short final. I am only advocating slipping on short final and in the flare - if there is a cross wind. It is the only way to land a plane in a crosswind.
I think it's useful to teach slipping all the way down because primary students rarely get to see many crosswinds, and it's educational for them to see how it all works. They are only on final for a minute or so, so not long, maybe they see 20 minutes of crosswinds in their whole training.
Sure, don't put flaps in when it's bumpy, I have no problem with that. I think you provide excellent theoretical reasons why it is bad. Practical experience will agree with you.
So they agree with me then. Slipping all the way down pisses off the customers, not good with swept wings, and turbines don't like it - so I have been told. Not all jets have problems with low slung engines, only some. Those new 737 motors seem to be almost on the floor when they are at the gate! Most jets will side slip on short final and land on one wheel in a strong cross wind - because it's the correct thing to do!! The ones with clearance issues will crab and land as you suggest with side forces that have been engineered for. It's a neccessary evil but better than leaving an engine in the tarmac. Please note I am not a jet pilot so this is what my friends who are tell me.
I always have fuel on 'both' in a Cessna. When configured as such, there is no problem with slipping and fuel flow/starvation, and the pilots manual would agree. The only time I have heard about problems with serious slipping in a Cessna and fuel problems is when water in the tank is dislodged. Fluid still gets to the engine, the problem is water doesn't burn.
Cheers
Sorry if I misunderstood. You appear to imply that side-slipping to landing is a big no-no in a crosswind, bumpy or not.
I don't think slipping an airplane is misflying it, and I will buy you beer all night if you can find me a trainer which has been slipped 'over the course of a few thousand hours'. How long am I advocating you sideslip on an approach? 30 seconds max perhaps? That's a lot of approaches. The wing spars would be knacked well before you get to your thousands of hours in the slip.
I think landing using a technique which applies a significant side force on the wheels is bad practice and will cause a lot more damage/death/injuries than engine failures on short final. I am only advocating slipping on short final and in the flare - if there is a cross wind. It is the only way to land a plane in a crosswind.
I think it's useful to teach slipping all the way down because primary students rarely get to see many crosswinds, and it's educational for them to see how it all works. They are only on final for a minute or so, so not long, maybe they see 20 minutes of crosswinds in their whole training.
Sure, don't put flaps in when it's bumpy, I have no problem with that. I think you provide excellent theoretical reasons why it is bad. Practical experience will agree with you.
Many airlines still use the slip on the landing but will never ever use it on the approach.
I always have fuel on 'both' in a Cessna. When configured as such, there is no problem with slipping and fuel flow/starvation, and the pilots manual would agree. The only time I have heard about problems with serious slipping in a Cessna and fuel problems is when water in the tank is dislodged. Fluid still gets to the engine, the problem is water doesn't burn.
Cheers
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Spectacular Approaches Web Site
slim_slag. I won't reply 
As for the crosswind landing in a heavy, check out http://www.aviationpics.com/app/app.htm
As for the crosswind landing in a heavy, check out http://www.aviationpics.com/app/app.htm
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Slim_Slag:
Um...I think we are talking about the same technique arent we? - using a combination technique.
I also teach students to slip earlier in the approach for the same reason - to give the student time - they just arent skilled enough to set it up at 50' on their first attempts - they just never apply enough rudder! However, I myself convert to slip over the threshold (i.e. 30-50') which stabilises the aircraft in good time prior to touchdown.
As for 'boat turn' lost me there. Are you talking about the wings level bit? If so then do see what you mean - if you apply the slip early you do end up juggling it if you hold it too long - as for the students - this juggling provides them with the time to learn how to fly the aircraft with the controls in a different 'neutral' datum.
Maybe I lost the plot somewhere here - if you think Im teaching/explaining something wrong please explain - im always open to advice - I am happy for such a discussion either here or in private e-mail.
Turbine:
Different techniques for different aircraft....yes sideslips have issues but side loadings on light a/c landing gear can be considerable if technique is incorrect.
I prefer to advocate using appropriate technique for the conditions...But as I said above - the control input required is the *same* at the point of touchdown regardless of technique. It has to be - both techniques aim to put the aircraft in the same situation for landing...(unless you get extreme and *need* to land wing down, upwind wheel first).
Now as an instructor I see a LOT of PPLs/Military pilots/CPLs/ATPLs from a wide background with a with varied depth of experience, landing in a wide variety of crosswinds. I have to say 90% of them have problems with crosswind landings - pretty much always trying the crab technique from start to finish - yeah great if you can do it - but different wind conditions/strengths incl gusty/turbulent conditions make this extremely difficult. I personally do not claim to be a whizz at this technique - and Ive seen a few 1000+ hour pilots have problems here as well..
The main problems are (in order of frequency):-
1. Failure to apply enough rudder
2. Failuer to time the kick properly
3. Failure to apply opposite aileron
Night x-wind (with or without gusts) causes all sorts of problems from failing to kick the a/c round to disappearing sideways (both into/outof wind!) across the runway - at night it is incredibly difficult to kick straight milliseconds before touchdown.
The combination technique removes many of these problems and makes 100% of landings *safe* and stressed within the aircraft operating limits (not design limits). It also makes it possible to *fly* the aircraft to the ground (night landing technique). Indeed this also becomes important when using less flap for the landing during a gusty crosswind at night...
Regards,
FF
Um...I think we are talking about the same technique arent we? - using a combination technique.
I also teach students to slip earlier in the approach for the same reason - to give the student time - they just arent skilled enough to set it up at 50' on their first attempts - they just never apply enough rudder! However, I myself convert to slip over the threshold (i.e. 30-50') which stabilises the aircraft in good time prior to touchdown.
As for 'boat turn' lost me there. Are you talking about the wings level bit? If so then do see what you mean - if you apply the slip early you do end up juggling it if you hold it too long - as for the students - this juggling provides them with the time to learn how to fly the aircraft with the controls in a different 'neutral' datum.
Maybe I lost the plot somewhere here - if you think Im teaching/explaining something wrong please explain - im always open to advice - I am happy for such a discussion either here or in private e-mail.
Turbine:
Different techniques for different aircraft....yes sideslips have issues but side loadings on light a/c landing gear can be considerable if technique is incorrect.
I prefer to advocate using appropriate technique for the conditions...But as I said above - the control input required is the *same* at the point of touchdown regardless of technique. It has to be - both techniques aim to put the aircraft in the same situation for landing...(unless you get extreme and *need* to land wing down, upwind wheel first).
Now as an instructor I see a LOT of PPLs/Military pilots/CPLs/ATPLs from a wide background with a with varied depth of experience, landing in a wide variety of crosswinds. I have to say 90% of them have problems with crosswind landings - pretty much always trying the crab technique from start to finish - yeah great if you can do it - but different wind conditions/strengths incl gusty/turbulent conditions make this extremely difficult. I personally do not claim to be a whizz at this technique - and Ive seen a few 1000+ hour pilots have problems here as well..
The main problems are (in order of frequency):-
1. Failure to apply enough rudder
2. Failuer to time the kick properly
3. Failure to apply opposite aileron
Night x-wind (with or without gusts) causes all sorts of problems from failing to kick the a/c round to disappearing sideways (both into/outof wind!) across the runway - at night it is incredibly difficult to kick straight milliseconds before touchdown.
The combination technique removes many of these problems and makes 100% of landings *safe* and stressed within the aircraft operating limits (not design limits). It also makes it possible to *fly* the aircraft to the ground (night landing technique). Indeed this also becomes important when using less flap for the landing during a gusty crosswind at night...
Regards,
FF
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Slim_Slag
I was not advocating landing sideways, in fact the point I was making was that a short time in the flare does not allow time for significant drift to develop, given aircraft inertia. However at the flare the pilot must remove the crab, to land straight. This will tend to lift the upwind wing, just at the time when it should be dropped a little to compensate for the wind in a sideslip in the flare if the crosswind is strong. Therefore some into-wind aileron is required. This is the technique taught by the best flying school I ever encountered, the joint services Elimentary flying Training, JEFTS. I was taught the full side-slip approach in my PPL but even by the end of that I was being taught it was better to crab for askilled pilot in all crosswind conditions.
Therefore in gusty conditions, at the point of flare, suddenly in ground effect you have to judge the exact rudder to not only keep the wing from lifting but to drop it the right amount. If you get it wrong, you will start to drift. However if you spend very little time in the flare there is no time for drift to develop, and the problem is removed. Hence the second reason for my advocacy of flapless landing in gusty crosswind.
I was not advocating landing sideways, in fact the point I was making was that a short time in the flare does not allow time for significant drift to develop, given aircraft inertia. However at the flare the pilot must remove the crab, to land straight. This will tend to lift the upwind wing, just at the time when it should be dropped a little to compensate for the wind in a sideslip in the flare if the crosswind is strong. Therefore some into-wind aileron is required. This is the technique taught by the best flying school I ever encountered, the joint services Elimentary flying Training, JEFTS. I was taught the full side-slip approach in my PPL but even by the end of that I was being taught it was better to crab for askilled pilot in all crosswind conditions.
Therefore in gusty conditions, at the point of flare, suddenly in ground effect you have to judge the exact rudder to not only keep the wing from lifting but to drop it the right amount. If you get it wrong, you will start to drift. However if you spend very little time in the flare there is no time for drift to develop, and the problem is removed. Hence the second reason for my advocacy of flapless landing in gusty crosswind.
I think there's a lot more confusion over terminology than anything else. Here's my take on it:
In the wing-down technique, the aircraft is held in a sideslip using upwind aileron and downwind rudder until touchdown. It touches down on the upwind wheel first.
In the crab-and-kick technique, the aircraft remains wings level, and downwind rudder is applied to kick off the crab angle just before touchdown. Upwind aileron needs to be applied to keep the wings level during the flat turn. It touches down wings level.
They appear to be testably different states in which the aircraft touches the runway.
I'd be interested to know
a) what technique Turbine is actually advocating as "applying the proper crosswind condition"?
b) how (if) Formation Flyer manages to fly the wing-down technique with the wings level? (or did I misunderstand)
In the wing-down technique, the aircraft is held in a sideslip using upwind aileron and downwind rudder until touchdown. It touches down on the upwind wheel first.
In the crab-and-kick technique, the aircraft remains wings level, and downwind rudder is applied to kick off the crab angle just before touchdown. Upwind aileron needs to be applied to keep the wings level during the flat turn. It touches down wings level.
They appear to be testably different states in which the aircraft touches the runway.
I'd be interested to know
a) what technique Turbine is actually advocating as "applying the proper crosswind condition"?
b) how (if) Formation Flyer manages to fly the wing-down technique with the wings level? (or did I misunderstand)
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Turbine
I won't reply.
I accept
Nice pictures, though I am sure some are fake.
Send Clowns & FormationFlyer
I am sure we are all talking about the same thing, i.e. crab down final then change configuration for landing so you do not land sideways.
I think that at the point of landing in a crosswind, the upwind wheel has to touch first and on its own, and the airplane nose has to be pointing down the centreline. How do we get there?
However at the flare the pilot must remove the crab,
I think this is too late and introduces all the complications you describe. Far better to configure for the side slip a few seconds out, so you can line up, start drift correction, and be ready for changes in the relative wind.
The changes in your control input to account for gusts and less effective control surfaces as you slow down, are an acquired skill. You are not going to get the student to learn this straightaway, but when they are mastered, he will be landing in the best possible configuration.
When I say wings level I mean precisely that...touch down on two main wheels at the same time.
With wings level and nose straight down the centreline, you are not "banking into the crosswind", so you must now be moving with the air mass. With a 10 kt 90 degree crosswind component, the air is moving at around 17 feet per second. Not only does this translate to a nasty sideways force on the tyres, but if you stay in the flare one extra second (easy to do if it's gusty) you now have missed the centreline by 17ft. Two seconds 34ft - how wide is a runway??? I am sure you can make corrections, but they will be far bigger and more prone to error than if you are sideslipping and configured to land on the upwind wheel 15 seconds out. Think of those poor tyres
Interesting thread! Thanks,
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Nice pictures, though I am sure some are fake.Send Clowns & FormationFlyer
I am sure we are all talking about the same thing, i.e. crab down final then change configuration for landing so you do not land sideways.
I think that at the point of landing in a crosswind, the upwind wheel has to touch first and on its own, and the airplane nose has to be pointing down the centreline. How do we get there?
However at the flare the pilot must remove the crab,
I think this is too late and introduces all the complications you describe. Far better to configure for the side slip a few seconds out, so you can line up, start drift correction, and be ready for changes in the relative wind.
The changes in your control input to account for gusts and less effective control surfaces as you slow down, are an acquired skill. You are not going to get the student to learn this straightaway, but when they are mastered, he will be landing in the best possible configuration.
When I say wings level I mean precisely that...touch down on two main wheels at the same time.
With wings level and nose straight down the centreline, you are not "banking into the crosswind", so you must now be moving with the air mass. With a 10 kt 90 degree crosswind component, the air is moving at around 17 feet per second. Not only does this translate to a nasty sideways force on the tyres, but if you stay in the flare one extra second (easy to do if it's gusty) you now have missed the centreline by 17ft. Two seconds 34ft - how wide is a runway??? I am sure you can make corrections, but they will be far bigger and more prone to error than if you are sideslipping and configured to land on the upwind wheel 15 seconds out. Think of those poor tyres
Interesting thread! Thanks,
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I've only ever once had a problem touching off the crab in the flare (that was an airfield where I experienced windshear on another occasion, and this time I just sank at the flare so did not have time, skipped a little but nothing serious), all it takes is a little practice and solid basic handling skills - rudder/aileron co-ordination. In light crosswind there is then often not time then for any drift to develop. As I said, in more severe crosswind drop the into-wind wing a little to prevent the drift, but unless that is perfectly-executed some drift will develop, so minimise the time in such a state by taking off crab late and touching down soon after.
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SendClowns
Why do you have two techniques for light or severe crosswind? At what xwind component do you decide to switch? Do you have numbers in your head for all the types you fly? What if it is gusty?
If you have a steady crosswind you should not get drift developing in the sideslip. In your 'crab and kick' (same mechanics as my boat turn) technique, if you get it wrong and you get a gust, then what do you do? You turn aileron into the wind so you stay above the centreline, then you have to add opposite rudder to keep nose pointing ahead. So you sideslip!!! Why not just sideslip from the beginning?
How about this one. All landings should be sideslip landings. If xwind component=zero, sideslip=zero. As xwind component increases, so does your side slip - if xwind is close to zero, then you might not even know you are sideslipping.
If you do it correct, severity of crosswind (if its steady) will not impact on the potential for drift. You can nail a perfect crosswind landing of any strength up to max rudder. In fact the only time you ever want to 'crab and kick' is when the xwind is above max rudder authority, but you need to be good! IMO.
You only have to learn one landing technique which works beautifully for all wind conditions (up to maximum available rudder authority). Life is so much more pleasant when there are fewer things to worry about
All in my opinion, of course
Why do you have two techniques for light or severe crosswind? At what xwind component do you decide to switch? Do you have numbers in your head for all the types you fly? What if it is gusty?
If you have a steady crosswind you should not get drift developing in the sideslip. In your 'crab and kick' (same mechanics as my boat turn) technique, if you get it wrong and you get a gust, then what do you do? You turn aileron into the wind so you stay above the centreline, then you have to add opposite rudder to keep nose pointing ahead. So you sideslip!!! Why not just sideslip from the beginning?
How about this one. All landings should be sideslip landings. If xwind component=zero, sideslip=zero. As xwind component increases, so does your side slip - if xwind is close to zero, then you might not even know you are sideslipping.
If you do it correct, severity of crosswind (if its steady) will not impact on the potential for drift. You can nail a perfect crosswind landing of any strength up to max rudder. In fact the only time you ever want to 'crab and kick' is when the xwind is above max rudder authority, but you need to be good! IMO.
You only have to learn one landing technique which works beautifully for all wind conditions (up to maximum available rudder authority). Life is so much more pleasant when there are fewer things to worry about
All in my opinion, of course
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It isn't really two techniques at all. The dropping of the wing is simply more of the same: as you kick straight you have to keep that wing down. If you are looking out of the aircraft at this point and feeling and seeing how it is flying, rather than flying by numbers then there is no need to change technique. If you see that you are drifting off the centre line either way, drop the wing to pull the aircraft straight. With a little practice there is no need to think about it, just watch the outside world and react to it. However well judged this technique rarely allows any drift to develop at all. This really is just flying the aircraft all the way to the ground, as all instructors teach.
I agree that if a gust blows in I end up sideslipping through the touchdown. But I am only in this inelegant mode of flight during the transition between flying and rollout, not for a protracted period.
In answer to "why not sideslip from the beginning?" - because I was taught the crab technique, and taught by the best instructors in the business running a highly-standardised course (EFT in the RN). No commercial instructors or IRI since have had any criticism of my technique. It is also the technique used on airliners I believe, as their brief flare does not allow drift to develop, and I hope to move on to fly these soon!
However I could equally say to you "why sideslip from the beginning?". There is no need to, and it is an inelegant, unbalanced form of flight with reduced control authority and stability and more chance of a spin if you should misjudge in gusty conditions and stall.
Crosswind does not necessarily impart sideslip after kicking straight. The aircraft has considerable momentum, so this takes time to develop. Judging the point at which you are about to sink out of the flare into the touchdown it is a simple process to straighten the aircraft in most crosswind conditions with no wing low. As I said before I have only had a problem once, and that was on an airfield where I have noticed peculiar drops in the wind.
All in my limited experience and IMHO of course
I agree that if a gust blows in I end up sideslipping through the touchdown. But I am only in this inelegant mode of flight during the transition between flying and rollout, not for a protracted period.
In answer to "why not sideslip from the beginning?" - because I was taught the crab technique, and taught by the best instructors in the business running a highly-standardised course (EFT in the RN). No commercial instructors or IRI since have had any criticism of my technique. It is also the technique used on airliners I believe, as their brief flare does not allow drift to develop, and I hope to move on to fly these soon!
However I could equally say to you "why sideslip from the beginning?". There is no need to, and it is an inelegant, unbalanced form of flight with reduced control authority and stability and more chance of a spin if you should misjudge in gusty conditions and stall.
Crosswind does not necessarily impart sideslip after kicking straight. The aircraft has considerable momentum, so this takes time to develop. Judging the point at which you are about to sink out of the flare into the touchdown it is a simple process to straighten the aircraft in most crosswind conditions with no wing low. As I said before I have only had a problem once, and that was on an airfield where I have noticed peculiar drops in the wind.
All in my limited experience and IMHO of course
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Send Clowns
because I was taught the crab technique, and taught by the best instructors in the business running a highly-standardised course (EFT in the RN).
Ha!! We are doing the "my primary instructor was better than yours, huh"
OK. In about 30 minutes I'm off flying in a Pitts with a guy who has > 5000 hours in aero planes. I am thinking he is planning to move all the blood from my right leg to my left arm, via my head, probably incorporating a slip or two to make sure he gets to all my blood . I might also bump into his buddy, who has >10000 hours in same planes.
They also instruct primary students, and are the best instructors I have ever met! So I shall ask them what they think, and report back!
(Actually I already know what they will say, haha)
Slipping is hardly inelegant! It's great fun, no risk of stalling if you keep your angle of attack in mind - no different to coordinated flight really. It's a very useful technique. Skidding is what kills people in the pattern, and people skid because they don't have the balls or ability to bank a plane. They are scared of banks and uncoordinated flight close to the ground, or even up in the air! This is a common feature of these low time guys being pumped out of the 'airline pilot' sausage mill schools. but I guess you don't want people who might decide to explore the limits when flying their 737.
because I was taught the crab technique, and taught by the best instructors in the business running a highly-standardised course (EFT in the RN).
Ha!! We are doing the "my primary instructor was better than yours, huh"
OK. In about 30 minutes I'm off flying in a Pitts with a guy who has > 5000 hours in aero planes. I am thinking he is planning to move all the blood from my right leg to my left arm, via my head, probably incorporating a slip or two to make sure he gets to all my blood
. I might also bump into his buddy, who has >10000 hours in same planes. They also instruct primary students, and are the best instructors I have ever met! So I shall ask them what they think, and report back!
(Actually I already know what they will say, haha)
Slipping is hardly inelegant! It's great fun, no risk of stalling if you keep your angle of attack in mind - no different to coordinated flight really. It's a very useful technique. Skidding is what kills people in the pattern, and people skid because they don't have the balls or ability to bank a plane. They are scared of banks and uncoordinated flight close to the ground, or even up in the air! This is a common feature of these low time guys being pumped out of the 'airline pilot' sausage mill schools.
but I guess you don't want people who might decide to explore the limits when flying their 737.
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Send clowns - Im with you I think there is only 1 technique - the difference is in when the controls are applied.
Slim_slag - you got me thinking now...I *know* I land wings level, two wheels down together - even though I am using crossed controls...I cant for the life of me all of a sudden think of the explaination to 'precise' control movements...
The briefing (& airbourne) advice is keep the wings level with aileron & on the runway heading with rudder.
....now...Im flying saturday - so Ill get in early and I think Ill go do this (pray for a x-wind!) so I can report back *precisely* what I do do in the last 30-50'.
I will say that when I touch down wings level on two main wheels first there is *no* sideways component...
Im now confused with how this whole thing works again now!!!!!!!
A *very* interesting thread!
FF
Slim_slag - you got me thinking now...I *know* I land wings level, two wheels down together - even though I am using crossed controls...I cant for the life of me all of a sudden think of the explaination to 'precise' control movements...
The briefing (& airbourne) advice is keep the wings level with aileron & on the runway heading with rudder.
....now...Im flying saturday - so Ill get in early and I think Ill go do this (pray for a x-wind!) so I can report back *precisely* what I do do in the last 30-50'.
I will say that when I touch down wings level on two main wheels first there is *no* sideways component...
Im now confused with how this whole thing works again now!!!!!!!
A *very* interesting thread!
FF
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The final leg of a circuit is no different to any other part of the circuit! You simply point the aircraft into wind as required to keep straight. I think it’s really strange that anybody would rather apply continued uncoordinated flight than simply crabbing the aircraft down final...
All the sensible aerodynamic considerations I previously mentioned aside, the slip is simply uncomfortable – and WILL NOT necessarily remove the requirement to apply (or reapply) a different technique during the landing…
What happens when you set the slip up for a 10-knot crosswind from the right at 150 feet and then it turns into a 20-knot crosswind from the left on the runway? It is really sensible to fly a sideslipping approach expecting certain conditions when they actually don’t exist?
slim_slag. A Pitts is a little different to most modern lighties. The Pitts really has to be slipped down final for visibility. It’s an entirely different kind of flying.
bookworm said:
Bookworm, the correct handling technique, as I know it, is a response to the aircraft’s normal behaviour…
1. Crab aircraft down the approach
2. Normal flare and landing
3. Apply rudder to keep the aircraft straight
4. Certainly anticipate the drift in advance, but apply aileron only as necessary to keep the aircraft from drifting
5. Use rudder as necessary (and only if required) to keep the nose straight
6. Touchdown windward wheel first, then ‘other’ main, then nosewheel
7. Aileron progressively into wind as aircraft slows down
(i.e. Aileron to arrest drift and rudder to keep straight).
You will find that every landing is a crosswind approach & landing to a certain extent since you can always expect at least a little wind! The above technique can be applied all the time…
I don’t like the term ’kick the aircraft into wind’. The term kick suggests that it is a violent response to keep the aircraft straight. The amount of rudder required should be applied as necessary.
If you do ‘kick the aircraft straight’, you will find that you can get a noticeable roll ‘out of the wind’ (due to windward wingtip moving faster), which makes the application of effective rudder difficult.
All the sensible aerodynamic considerations I previously mentioned aside, the slip is simply uncomfortable – and WILL NOT necessarily remove the requirement to apply (or reapply) a different technique during the landing…
What happens when you set the slip up for a 10-knot crosswind from the right at 150 feet and then it turns into a 20-knot crosswind from the left on the runway? It is really sensible to fly a sideslipping approach expecting certain conditions when they actually don’t exist?
slim_slag. A Pitts is a little different to most modern lighties. The Pitts really has to be slipped down final for visibility. It’s an entirely different kind of flying.
bookworm said:
…what technique Turbine is actually advocating as "applying the proper crosswind technique"?
1. Crab aircraft down the approach
2. Normal flare and landing
3. Apply rudder to keep the aircraft straight
4. Certainly anticipate the drift in advance, but apply aileron only as necessary to keep the aircraft from drifting
5. Use rudder as necessary (and only if required) to keep the nose straight
6. Touchdown windward wheel first, then ‘other’ main, then nosewheel
7. Aileron progressively into wind as aircraft slows down
(i.e. Aileron to arrest drift and rudder to keep straight).
You will find that every landing is a crosswind approach & landing to a certain extent since you can always expect at least a little wind! The above technique can be applied all the time…
I don’t like the term ’kick the aircraft into wind’. The term kick suggests that it is a violent response to keep the aircraft straight. The amount of rudder required should be applied as necessary.
If you do ‘kick the aircraft straight’, you will find that you can get a noticeable roll ‘out of the wind’ (due to windward wingtip moving faster), which makes the application of effective rudder difficult.
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What's going on here Turbine. You are starting to agree with me!
I was using the Pitts purely because this very high time and very experienced instructor, who teaches to side-slip late on final in a crosswind, was out flying it today and I asked him what he thinks. It was meant to be a harmless and gentle rib on Send Clowns who said he went to the finest school, when there are plenty of 'finest schools' in the world. You are right, forward visibility is not too good.
FF
I will say that when I touch down wings level on two main wheels first there is *no* sideways component...
If you are in a crosswind, I bet you there is, but it may not be noticeable if it is slight.
I was using the Pitts purely because this very high time and very experienced instructor, who teaches to side-slip late on final in a crosswind, was out flying it today and I asked him what he thinks. It was meant to be a harmless and gentle rib on Send Clowns who said he went to the finest school, when there are plenty of 'finest schools' in the world. You are right, forward visibility is not too good.
FF
I will say that when I touch down wings level on two main wheels first there is *no* sideways component...
If you are in a crosswind, I bet you there is, but it may not be noticeable if it is slight.
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Slim_Slag
My point was more the extreme standardisation of military EFT, as well as its excellent reputation (undeniable). Central Flying School ensures that all instructors teach exactly the same techniques, and teach in the same way (down to the same colours on the whiteboards for the same items in the briefing!). Therefore what I was taught is the same taught to all military pilots (and it wasn't my primary instruction - I had an FAA PPL long before that, taught wing down at first, then was taught to crab by my PPL instructor).
Agree that the slip is useful - for adjusting a glide, for some taildraggers etc., and that you can avoid the stall. It is hardly elegant though - unless flying aerobatics the aircraft should be balanced! And people do stall on approach, mostly in gusty conditions, and this can be disasterous in a serious sideslip. In co-ordinated flight it is merely embarrassing, or at worst damaging to the undercarriage.
I am happy to slip an aircraft in, and perfectly capable of doing so safely. However if I want to fly a "textbook" circuit in a tricycle-geared aircraft (no taildragger time, so cannot comment on Pitts) with which I am familiar I will crab even into the flare, until the aircraft tells me it wants to settle. Then I use co-ordinated rudder and aileron to fly it straight, exactly as Turbine describes.
In reply to your reply to FF I will refer you back to my comments that if the timing is judged correctly there is no time for drift to develop!
My point was more the extreme standardisation of military EFT, as well as its excellent reputation (undeniable). Central Flying School ensures that all instructors teach exactly the same techniques, and teach in the same way (down to the same colours on the whiteboards for the same items in the briefing!). Therefore what I was taught is the same taught to all military pilots (and it wasn't my primary instruction - I had an FAA PPL long before that, taught wing down at first, then was taught to crab by my PPL instructor).
Agree that the slip is useful - for adjusting a glide, for some taildraggers etc., and that you can avoid the stall. It is hardly elegant though - unless flying aerobatics the aircraft should be balanced! And people do stall on approach, mostly in gusty conditions, and this can be disasterous in a serious sideslip. In co-ordinated flight it is merely embarrassing, or at worst damaging to the undercarriage.
I am happy to slip an aircraft in, and perfectly capable of doing so safely. However if I want to fly a "textbook" circuit in a tricycle-geared aircraft (no taildragger time, so cannot comment on Pitts) with which I am familiar I will crab even into the flare, until the aircraft tells me it wants to settle. Then I use co-ordinated rudder and aileron to fly it straight, exactly as Turbine describes.
In reply to your reply to FF I will refer you back to my comments that if the timing is judged correctly there is no time for drift to develop!
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Send Clowns,
I am confident you have had some of the best training out there, but there are other good places too who teach differently. At the end of the day it's aerodynamics which count. I think we all agree you should crab down final, but given two competing practices at roundout/flare (crab and kick vs sideslip), one has to be 'better'. I think we tend to agree(ish), and as they say 'any landing you walk away from is a good one'.
In reply to your reply to FF I will refer you back to my comments that if the timing is judged correctly there is no time for drift to develop!
And I will still be happy to bet on the fact that there is a sideways force on the tyres in a 'crab and kick' crosswind landing. As the point of betting is making more money than you lose, I think I would quickly be well in the money, especially if crosswinds are gusty.
Now I'm not saying that in a gusty crosswind you will always do a perfect no sideforce landing if you slip it in. But - if you were to bet on the 'crab and kicker', and I was to bet on the 'side-slipper', and we put strain-gauges on the gear, it wouldn't take long for me to have all your money in my sweaty palms. Yep, I'd put money on that.
regards
I am confident you have had some of the best training out there, but there are other good places too who teach differently. At the end of the day it's aerodynamics which count. I think we all agree you should crab down final, but given two competing practices at roundout/flare (crab and kick vs sideslip), one has to be 'better'. I think we tend to agree(ish), and as they say 'any landing you walk away from is a good one'.
In reply to your reply to FF I will refer you back to my comments that if the timing is judged correctly there is no time for drift to develop!
And I will still be happy to bet on the fact that there is a sideways force on the tyres in a 'crab and kick' crosswind landing. As the point of betting is making more money than you lose, I think I would quickly be well in the money, especially if crosswinds are gusty.
Now I'm not saying that in a gusty crosswind you will always do a perfect no sideforce landing if you slip it in. But - if you were to bet on the 'crab and kicker', and I was to bet on the 'side-slipper', and we put strain-gauges on the gear, it wouldn't take long for me to have all your money in my sweaty palms. Yep, I'd put money on that.
regards
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I disagree. I rarely have any discernable drift, because as stated I look out of the aircraft, and fly it for a straight landing through to touchdown (however I crab but do not kick, for the reason Turbine said - then this technique would not work). If this requires that one wheel touch first, then so be it. However I do not set out with that intention, and do not see in any way why I should do so, or why to do so would help.
In the gusty winds you are suggesing you cannot put on perfect slip, so you are as likely as I to land with some side load. More so if you really are as prescriptive about your final approach as you seem to be here, which I doubt. Look outside and fly straight : a technique I personally honed on hovering helicopters, but one that most experienced pilots develop. Being prescriptive about the required movements will not get consistent good landings.
In the gusty winds you are suggesing you cannot put on perfect slip, so you are as likely as I to land with some side load. More so if you really are as prescriptive about your final approach as you seem to be here, which I doubt. Look outside and fly straight : a technique I personally honed on hovering helicopters, but one that most experienced pilots develop. Being prescriptive about the required movements will not get consistent good landings.