Requirement to fly a Trial Lesson
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Requirement to fly a Trial Lesson
I've heard on the grapevine that an instructor rating is not necessarily required to carry a member of the public for their first flight when operating within a club environment.
Does anyone know anything about this?
Does anyone know anything about this?
EU Regulation 216/2011 Article 7 requires that Persons responsible for providing flight training shall hold an appropriate certificate. issued in accordance with the requirements in Annex III.
The UK ANO Art 80 requires that flying instruction for the purpose defined in the order is not permitted by any person unless:
(a) they hold a licence, granted or rendered valid under this Order or a Part-FCL licence, entitling them to act as pilot in command of the aircraft for the purpose and in the circumstances under which the instruction is to be given; and
(b) the licence includes an instructor’s rating entitling the holder to give the instruction or the holder of the licence holds a valid instructor’s certificate.
Regulation 245/2014 amending Annex III includes the following statement which may have been assummed by some to infer that "introductory flights" may be given by a person who is not an instructor:
Incidentally there is no "Article 6(4a)"!
If a flight is not a lesson, then who pays for it? The passenger may contribute towards the cost of a private flight under cost sharing arrangements Art 267, but if they pay for the entire flight, it is public transport which requires an AOC.
The UK ANO Art 80 requires that flying instruction for the purpose defined in the order is not permitted by any person unless:
(a) they hold a licence, granted or rendered valid under this Order or a Part-FCL licence, entitling them to act as pilot in command of the aircraft for the purpose and in the circumstances under which the instruction is to be given; and
(b) the licence includes an instructor’s rating entitling the holder to give the instruction or the holder of the licence holds a valid instructor’s certificate.
Regulation 245/2014 amending Annex III includes the following statement which may have been assummed by some to infer that "introductory flights" may be given by a person who is not an instructor:
2. Notwithstanding the privileges of the holders of licences as defined in Annex I to this Regulation, holders of pilot licences issued in accordance with Subpart B or C of Annex I to this Regulation may carry out flights referred to in Article 6(4a) of Regulation (EU) No 965/2012. This is without prejudice to compliance with any additional requirements for the carriage of passengers or the development of commercial operations defined in Subparts B or C of Annex I to this Regulation.’
If a flight is not a lesson, then who pays for it? The passenger may contribute towards the cost of a private flight under cost sharing arrangements Art 267, but if they pay for the entire flight, it is public transport which requires an AOC.
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A Trial Lesson is just that a lesson. So must be flown by an Instructor and under the auspices of a Flying School (ATO).
A Trial Flight/Introductory Flight could be undertaken, in certain European countries (not the UK), by an experienced pilot (not an Instructor) under Club arrangements.
EASA Rules stopped this. However Germany, in particular, are lobbying to have this changed - and are continuing to allow this whilst awaiting the Rule change.
The above all assumes that the Passenger is paying the whole cost of the flight.
There is nothing to stop a PPL doing this - doesn't even have to be a club environment. But the Pilot must pay, at least their fair share of, the cost of the flight and how would a member of the public find out about this 'opportunity'? Advertising is a big No No.
A Trial Flight/Introductory Flight could be undertaken, in certain European countries (not the UK), by an experienced pilot (not an Instructor) under Club arrangements.
EASA Rules stopped this. However Germany, in particular, are lobbying to have this changed - and are continuing to allow this whilst awaiting the Rule change.
The above all assumes that the Passenger is paying the whole cost of the flight.
carry a member of the public for their first flight when operating within a club environment
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Exercise 3....Air Experience.
No mention of Trial lesson.
Since when did Trial Lessons appear on the syllabus.
I know, when flying schools try to undercut the oppostion by advertising a one hour Trial Lesson with 40 brief and 20 minutes flying!
Then people get all hung about the TL must be taught something.
Which usually happens.
I can see where the Germans are coming from.
No mention of Trial lesson.
Since when did Trial Lessons appear on the syllabus.
I know, when flying schools try to undercut the oppostion by advertising a one hour Trial Lesson with 40 brief and 20 minutes flying!
Then people get all hung about the TL must be taught something.
Which usually happens.
I can see where the Germans are coming from.
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"A Trial Flight/Introductory Flight could be undertaken, in certain European countries (not the UK), by an experienced pilot (not an Instructor) under Club arrangements.".........Now I like the sound of that!
I was hoping to allow a member of the public (temporary member for the day) to fly with selected club members (PPL holders).
The pilot would not get paid, and theoretically a member of the public would be paying for membership for the day and a free 30 minute flight. ?!?!
Any suggestions anybody?
I've tried reading annex II, subpart five, paragraph 6, subsection 19......!.... Only an overpaid solicitor can understand that EASA rubbish.
I was hoping to allow a member of the public (temporary member for the day) to fly with selected club members (PPL holders).
The pilot would not get paid, and theoretically a member of the public would be paying for membership for the day and a free 30 minute flight. ?!?!
Any suggestions anybody?
I've tried reading annex II, subpart five, paragraph 6, subsection 19......!.... Only an overpaid solicitor can understand that EASA rubbish.
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Done it at Leicester a few times.
Perfectly legal, just do a temp membership form. The pilots volunteer for it, fly from the left and just show people the local area that is all.
It should never be referred to as a trial lesson, that infers teaching which can only be an instructor.
It's just designed to attract business that's all, great little idea in conjunction with an open day etc
Perfectly legal, just do a temp membership form. The pilots volunteer for it, fly from the left and just show people the local area that is all.
It should never be referred to as a trial lesson, that infers teaching which can only be an instructor.
It's just designed to attract business that's all, great little idea in conjunction with an open day etc
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"A Trial Flight/Introductory Flight could be undertaken, in certain European countries (not the UK), by an experienced pilot (not an Instructor) under Club arrangements.".
By experience pilot do you mean one of the "Lords" of the flying club that has been a honorary member for the last 25 years and does his 10-15 hours per year?
It's just designed to attract business that's all,
My only solution to this is to allow CRI's to teach Exercise 3.
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As a CRI you cannot teach a student without a licence. Only an FI can.
It's not about money. The whole idea is to get people who wouldn't otherwise think of paying for a quick flight, into the air and experience it for the first time. The free flight is an attraction and the volunteers are told specifically that it's not a lesson it's just an experience. It's not time which can be logged unless the pilot is an FI, which most are not.
I know for a fact it works. Up to you whether you want to do it.
It's not about money. The whole idea is to get people who wouldn't otherwise think of paying for a quick flight, into the air and experience it for the first time. The free flight is an attraction and the volunteers are told specifically that it's not a lesson it's just an experience. It's not time which can be logged unless the pilot is an FI, which most are not.
I know for a fact it works. Up to you whether you want to do it.
Perfectly legal, just do a temp membership form. The pilots volunteer for it, fly from the left and just show people the local area that is all.
260 (1) For the purposes of this Order and subject to Part 34, an aircraft in flight is flying on a
public transport fl ight if the conditions specifi ed in paragraph (2) are met.
(2) The conditions referred to in paragraph (1) are:
(a) the aircraft is not flying on a commercial air transport flight; and
(b) that
(i) valuable consideration is given or promised for the carriage of passengers or
cargo in the aircraft on that flight
public transport fl ight if the conditions specifi ed in paragraph (2) are met.
(2) The conditions referred to in paragraph (1) are:
(a) the aircraft is not flying on a commercial air transport flight; and
(b) that
(i) valuable consideration is given or promised for the carriage of passengers or
cargo in the aircraft on that flight
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Perfectly legal, just do a temp membership form. The pilots volunteer for it, fly from the left and just show people the local area that is all.
A CPL who is not an instructor could do remunerated trial flights under an AtoA AOC, but the "student" couldn't log it, they'd be a pax. This is the rule used for things like tourist Tiger Moth or Dragon Rapide flights at various places.
Otherwise you need to be an FI, as various others have said.
I'm sure as a CRI I could do much more flying if I could do trial lessons, but I can't.
Nothing to stop you taking friends flying for free of course. We all do that, but it's just a private flight with a pax.
G
Otherwise you need to be an FI, as various others have said.
I'm sure as a CRI I could do much more flying if I could do trial lessons, but I can't.
Nothing to stop you taking friends flying for free of course. We all do that, but it's just a private flight with a pax.
G
Pre-application Information | Air Operations | Operations and Safety
Charges are on page 5 of http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ORS5%20No.%20287.pdf: £270 or £90/month, whichever is greater.
I've never tried to put the paperwork together for one of these, but I'd guess a week or two of a good person's time.
G
A to A AOC
An AOC with a deliberately limited scope that allows operators to conduct flights that depart from and arrive at the same aerodrome. It has the following conditions:
Flights must be day VFR only
Only applicable to aircraft not exceeding 5,000 kg Maximum Take-Off Weight (MTOW)
Flights are restricted in radius of operation of not more than 50 nautical miles (aeroplanes) or 25 nautical miles (helicopters) from the aerodrome. Application to operate outside of this area may be considered and is likely to incur additional costs.
The AOC may be issued with a limited but seasonal validity period depending upon the requirement.
A to A operators are not required to hold an Operating Licence.
An AOC with a deliberately limited scope that allows operators to conduct flights that depart from and arrive at the same aerodrome. It has the following conditions:
Flights must be day VFR only
Only applicable to aircraft not exceeding 5,000 kg Maximum Take-Off Weight (MTOW)
Flights are restricted in radius of operation of not more than 50 nautical miles (aeroplanes) or 25 nautical miles (helicopters) from the aerodrome. Application to operate outside of this area may be considered and is likely to incur additional costs.
The AOC may be issued with a limited but seasonal validity period depending upon the requirement.
A to A operators are not required to hold an Operating Licence.
I've never tried to put the paperwork together for one of these, but I'd guess a week or two of a good person's time.
G
Last edited by Genghis the Engineer; 22nd May 2014 at 10:34.
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No this is the point chaps.
The pilots volunteer their aircraft for the day/part day. Cost is wholly on the pilot. No charge is made for the membership it's purely an insurance requirement. Time is not logged, pilot sits in the appropriate seat and it's just like taking your mates up.
Perfectly legal and does good for the whole club.
The pilots volunteer their aircraft for the day/part day. Cost is wholly on the pilot. No charge is made for the membership it's purely an insurance requirement. Time is not logged, pilot sits in the appropriate seat and it's just like taking your mates up.
Perfectly legal and does good for the whole club.
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The pilots volunteer their aircraft for the day/part day. Cost is wholly on the pilot. No charge is made for the membership it's purely an insurance requirement. Time is not logged, pilot sits in the appropriate seat and it's just like taking your mates up.
As a CRI you cannot teach a student without a licence. Only an FI can.
Could you please define an experience pilot(that is not an instructor) to go and conduct a flight "acting as if he is a instructor".
NB: The CAA does define Pilot experience requirements for Charity Flights (see AIC W104/2012) so if 'Club Arrangements' did ever become allowed in UK I would expect something similar.
I was hoping to allow a member of the public (temporary member for the day) to fly with selected club members (PPL holders).
The pilot would not get paid, and theoretically a member of the public would be paying for membership for the day and a free 30 minute flight. ?!?!
Any suggestions anybody?
The pilot would not get paid, and theoretically a member of the public would be paying for membership for the day and a free 30 minute flight. ?!?!
Any suggestions anybody?
Who is paying for the flight - In this case the unlucky 'member of the public'
Completely illegal (in the UK at present)
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I asked to book a pleasure flight at my local aerodrome about 5 years ago. I was told that it would have to be called a trial lesson because the insurance for pleasure flights was much dearer.
I thought that the risks involved in allowing a novice to handle the controls would be much greater than if they were just a passenger.
Was I given wrong information?
I thought that the risks involved in allowing a novice to handle the controls would be much greater than if they were just a passenger.
Was I given wrong information?
Depends upon their insurance company I imagine.
It's more likely true that most of the business is from instruction, and so it's never been worth the bother and costs to get the Air Operators Certificate that would be required to do it otherwise.
G
It's more likely true that most of the business is from instruction, and so it's never been worth the bother and costs to get the Air Operators Certificate that would be required to do it otherwise.
G
Educated Hillbilly
Cunliffe,
It wasn't insurance the answer is on this page, the A to A scenic flight requires an AOC, therefore the pleaure / scenic flight needs to cover the AOC cost hence the increased price.
I use to work for flying school with an A to A scenic flight operation. Before I could fly on the scenic flight I had to do an OPC (in a 172FR) with an examiner, all the ground stuff (ditching, first aid, dangerous goods, security etc), but as an instructor I could still fly the same plane in the same airspace from the right side with as you say a complete stranger and novice at the controls as a trial lesson.
So it is not just the cost of the AOC registration itself, but also the additional pilot ground training and opc costs that also adds to the cost of running an A to A AOC.
It wasn't insurance the answer is on this page, the A to A scenic flight requires an AOC, therefore the pleaure / scenic flight needs to cover the AOC cost hence the increased price.
I use to work for flying school with an A to A scenic flight operation. Before I could fly on the scenic flight I had to do an OPC (in a 172FR) with an examiner, all the ground stuff (ditching, first aid, dangerous goods, security etc), but as an instructor I could still fly the same plane in the same airspace from the right side with as you say a complete stranger and novice at the controls as a trial lesson.
So it is not just the cost of the AOC registration itself, but also the additional pilot ground training and opc costs that also adds to the cost of running an A to A AOC.
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portsharbourflyer,
A nice possible explanation but I am thinking that the answer to Cunliffe's question might be even simpler:
He asked a Flying School (without an AOC) about a possible pleasure flight and they gave a 'not necessarily fully correct', but easy to understand, layman's answer about why he could only have a Trial lesson.
A nice possible explanation but I am thinking that the answer to Cunliffe's question might be even simpler:
He asked a Flying School (without an AOC) about a possible pleasure flight and they gave a 'not necessarily fully correct', but easy to understand, layman's answer about why he could only have a Trial lesson.