Flying Instructors & Examiners A place for instructors to communicate with one another because some of them get a bit tired of the attitude that instructing is the lowest form of aviation, as seems to prevail on some of the other forums!

SEP REVAL/RENEWAL FORMS

Old 7th Apr 2013, 17:22
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: 55N
Posts: 171
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
SEP REVAL/RENEWAL FORMS

I appreciate some discussion has taken place previously on this topic, but just trying to consolidate current position and latest reference. The FEH indicates that for SEP revalidations Forms SRG 1119 should be used, but at appendix 11 there is an indication that form SRG 2199 should be used. Last I heard was that SRG 1157 replaced 1119 and should be used for revals/renewals by LPC and Experience. Any pointers (with up-to-date ref) would be appreciated.
justmaybe is offline  
Old 7th Apr 2013, 18:59
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 681
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
SRG1157 is required for all Revalidations/Renewals and it says on it
what other Forms may be required.

- Revalidation by Experience - None
- Revalidation by LPC - None if Pass, SRG2129 if Fail

Renewals:
No Examiner may Test unless there is confirmation from
an ATO that any required training has been completed.
This is usually SRG1107 which just needs to be seen by
Examiner and is not sent to CAA, but kept by ATO

Rating expired less than 3 years (Examiner signs Rating Page)
- Pass = SRG1157 only
- Fail = SRG1157 plus SRG 2129

Rating expired by more than 3 years (Examiner cannot sign Rating page)
- Pass = SRG1157 plus SRG 1119
(plus, possibly, applying for an EASA Licence)
- Fail = SRG1157 plus SRG 2129

Last edited by Level Attitude; 7th Apr 2013 at 19:01.
Level Attitude is offline  
Old 7th Apr 2013, 20:22
  #3 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: 55N
Posts: 171
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Thanks LA.
Pretty much my understanding. It is both frustrating and annoying that not only has this process become an unnecessary administrative minefield, but the CAA can't keep their own guidance docs up to date. This is the nonsense that breeds the so called requirement for the Examiner Seminars!!
justmaybe is offline  
Old 7th Apr 2013, 21:04
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Posts: 26,850
Received 328 Likes on 115 Posts
The CAA has now accepted that its pilot licensing forms are overcomplicated and unreasonably burdensome.

You can anticipate a wholesale revision of the forms in the near future. In addition, there will be guidance which, for example, will gives precise instructions as to which forms are needed for which purpose.

Or so they've said.....
BEagle is online now  
Old 7th Apr 2013, 21:17
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 6,582
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 4 Posts
Perhaps they could use the general purpose forms provided for them in the AMC; after all that's what they are for, standardised European forms!
Whopity is offline  
Old 9th Apr 2013, 08:07
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Europe
Posts: 537
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I am wondering about the requirement for anyone who missed the date of SEP reval and who needs a renewal flight check

As an RF I can continue as before until next April and do not need to be an ATO at present

The pilot now apparently requires training at an ATO and sign off prior to renewal flight

So yes there is a new requirement but surely logic dictates that a Rf can sign off training until ATO mandatory

Grey area I know but logical ? Completed training form is not sent to CAA so can sit in filing cabinet - everyone happy. I really do think that as Examiners we need to start applying some common sense to this nonsense

My thoughts are that CAA are in a mess with this as evidenced by the awful implementation and that if I sign off both forms common sense prevails

Comments and views welcomed

Last edited by belowradar; 9th Apr 2013 at 08:09.
belowradar is offline  
Old 9th Apr 2013, 09:05
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 6,582
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 4 Posts
As an RF I can continue as before until next April and do not need to be an ATO at present
Yes, the CAA omitted to include RF in the IN but confirmed to some of those who asked that this is the case. In any case its April 2015 not 2014.

The pilot now apparently requires training at an ATO and sign off prior to renewal flight
There is no mandated requirement for training, only an assessment, and then on completion of whatever the ATO or RF decides, a Course Completion certificate. This may involve no training at all!

Completed training form is not sent to CAA so can sit in filing cabinet
Under Part FCL all records must be retained for 5 years.

Last edited by Whopity; 9th Apr 2013 at 09:06.
Whopity is offline  
Old 9th Apr 2013, 11:29
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: York
Age: 53
Posts: 797
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
"Perhaps they could use the general purpose forms provided for them in the AMC; after all that's what they are for, standardised European forms!"

Yes you would have thought so wouldn't you. Why reinvent the wheel?

Would I be correct in thinking I could submit those very forms to the CAA and that they would have to except them?
Mickey Kaye is offline  
Old 9th Apr 2013, 13:12
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 2,523
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Under Part FCL all records must be retained for 5 years.
Not quite. Certain training records and information on licences and associated ratings and certificates of students must be kept for 3 years. Compliance monitoring records must be kept for 5 years.
BillieBob is offline  
Old 9th Apr 2013, 13:47
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Europe
Posts: 537
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Thanks WHOPPITY that is good news

Is there a template for the "Training Course Completion Certificate" or can I issue my own in my own format ?
belowradar is offline  
Old 9th Apr 2013, 14:28
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Level Attitude

Revalidation by experience...what about form 1119E?

Brgds
Treadstone1 is offline  
Old 10th Apr 2013, 00:05
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 681
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Most Up to Date Reference

Level Attitude

Revalidation by experience...what about form 1119E?

Brgds
- Flight Examiners Handbook - 17/09/2012
- SRG1119E - 10/10/2012
- SRG1157 - 24/10/2012

SRG1157 is the most up to date document and hence the one, I believe,
should be the prime reference.

SRG1157 says that a, non-specific, SRG1119 only needs to be submitted
if an Examiner does not/cannot/will not sign the Ratings Page.

SRG1119E is only for use if an Examiner has signed a Ratings Page.
Hence submitting one is nonsense (I cannot think of an example where
an Examiner signs a Ratings Page but candidate still needs to apply to
CAA for a Rating - Happy to be corrected if anyone else can)

Hence SRG1157 made SRG1119E redundant after only two weeks.
Level Attitude is offline  
Old 10th Apr 2013, 00:10
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 681
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Thanks WHOPPITY that is good news

Is there a template for the "Training Course Completion Certificate" or can I issue my own in my own format ?
As stated in Post #2: SRG1107
Level Attitude is offline  
Old 10th Apr 2013, 06:04
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Europe
Posts: 537
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Level Attitude

Thanks, did not view form so did not appreciate that it was a certificate of completed training
belowradar is offline  
Old 10th Apr 2013, 06:07
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Posts: 26,850
Received 328 Likes on 115 Posts
Quote:
As an RF I can continue as before until next April and do not need to be an ATO at present

Yes, the CAA omitted to include RF in the IN but confirmed to some of those who asked that this is the case. In any case its April 2015 not 2014.
At last week's Dublin FCL-IF meeting, someone raised this question. The EASA person tried a "Befehl ist Befehl - an order is an order!" response, indicating that this training had to be carried out at an ATO. He was firmly put back in his box by everyone else and was told that his interpretation was unreasonable, disproportionate and would not be accepted. As the CAA put it "If an RF can teach the entire PPL syllabus from nothing, they can certainly conduct refresher training!".

EASA subsequently decided not to argue.

So, until Apr 2015, Whopity's statement is correct.
BEagle is online now  
Old 10th Apr 2013, 07:47
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: West Sussex
Posts: 319
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
At last week's Dublin FCL-IF meeting, someone raised this question. The EASA person tried a "Befehl ist Befehl - an order is an order!" response, indicating that this training had to be carried out at an ATO. He was firmly put back in his box by everyone else and was told that his interpretation was unreasonable, disproportionate and would not be accepted. As the CAA put it "If an RF can teach the entire PPL syllabus from nothing, they can certainly conduct refresher training!".
Shame they did not extend this principle to allow RFs to train for LAPL and Aerobatics rating before becoming ATOs.
dobbin1 is offline  
Old 10th Apr 2013, 17:49
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Here and there
Posts: 534
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
You may still conduct aerobatics training as a RF, and provide the student with an AOPA certificate at the end of their course. This may then be used to obtain an Aerobatic Rating on an EASA licence.

CAP 804, Section 4, Part P, page 32. Para 2(a).

ifitaint...

Last edited by ifitaintboeing; 10th Apr 2013 at 17:50.
ifitaintboeing is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2013, 05:33
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: West Sussex
Posts: 319
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
You may still conduct aerobatics training as a RF, and provide the student with an AOPA certificate at the end of their course. This may then be used to obtain an Aerobatic Rating on an EASA licence.
Yes, and in fact this is what I am doing. However this is only applicable to someone converting their licence. As far as I can see this does not work if they already have their EASA papers - or have I misinterpreted the rules?
dobbin1 is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2013, 07:10
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Here and there
Posts: 534
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Even if they have an EASA licence, you may continue to conduct aerobatics training and provide an AOPA course completion certificate, for the applicant to then obtain an Aerobatics Rating - until 08th April 2015.

Consider the licence and rating conversion(s) as separate - the only difference is that if you apply for the rating after licence conversion, you will have to pay the CAA a fee to add the rating onto your licence.

If you apply for the aerobatics rating at the time of conversion to an EASA licence the CAA will add it at no extra cost.

ifitaint...
ifitaintboeing is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2013, 15:23
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: West Sussex
Posts: 319
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Thanks ifitaint. Helpful advice

Last edited by dobbin1; 11th Apr 2013 at 15:24.
dobbin1 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.