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Simulated single engine

Old 21st Feb 2013, 13:41
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Simulated single engine

Hi guy,
I have just one question for you.
During simulated, in single engine airplane, is possible cut off the mixture for training ???
Thanks a lot
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Old 21st Feb 2013, 14:48
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Yes. In fact for an initial rating you have to do it as part of the course and as part of the skill test.

Most instructors prefer to simulate as its kinder on the engine and some engines can be reluctant to start when they have gone stone cold in the air.
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Old 21st Feb 2013, 14:59
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in single engine airplane, is possible cut off the mixture for training ???
I think you are talking at cross purposes. You shut down an engine on a ME aeroplane but not on a Single Engine Aeroplane.

If you wish to simulate an Engine Failure on a SE you close the throttle so that the engine is still available. If you use the mixture you will shut down the engine which could possibly endanger the aircraft its occupants and people on the ground. Don't do it!
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Old 21st Feb 2013, 15:37
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Ah! My misunderstanding, I assumed that it was ME as no one in their right mind would be shutting down the engine on a SE for training!!
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Old 21st Feb 2013, 16:11
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Thumbs up

My question concern the single engine airplane.
Just besause there is a discussion with other instructor on right training and skill.
Thanks all for reply.
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Old 21st Feb 2013, 16:17
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If you use the mixture you will shut down the engine
Really ? Thats not what happened to me last weekend, or the weekend before, or the weekend before that....... etc etc etc
Guess we must have different aircraft.
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Old 21st Feb 2013, 16:21
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During simulated, in single engine airplane, is possible cut off the mixture for training ???
If you pull the mixture to idle cut off, it would no longer be a simulated engine failure, the engine would stop completely. When you then want to abandon your simulation and climb away, you would have to restart the engine, which would not be guaranteed, so not worth playing around with.

Instead, when simulating engine failure, the throttle is brought to idle, which is as close an approximation to a stopped engine as you can safely simulate. In a real engine failure, the propeller may be windmilling which would cause extra drag, but you are unable to simulate this without actually shutting the engine down.

Last edited by RTN11; 21st Feb 2013 at 16:22.
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Old 21st Feb 2013, 17:35
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Guess we must have different aircraft.
I guess yours runs without fuel!
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Old 21st Feb 2013, 19:20
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On a ME piston, just close the fuel valve of one of the engines. It is not noticed by your student and gives you a real failure of the engine. also easy to start the engine aain by opening the fuel valve.
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Old 21st Feb 2013, 20:07
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Originally Posted by Icelanta
On a ME piston, just close the fuel valve of one of the engines. It is not noticed by your student and gives you a real failure of the engine. also easy to start the engine aain by opening the fuel valve.
I would immediately fire any instructor that did what you recommend. Not only is it very hard on the engine, it involves deliberately creating an unsafe condition when there is a perfectly safe alternative by simulating a failure by retarding the throttle to idle.
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Old 21st Feb 2013, 20:19
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Hahahaha! Man, what a tosh, unsafe condition?! so you also never give a student a failure and feather and secure exercise?! And then airlines complain about declining training standards
This procedure has been standard at the BAS, Belgian aviation school, later Sabena Flight academy. You call them dangerous?
Idling an engine on a twin is not at all representative to an actual failure. the full procedure must be trained onboard the actual aircraft.
Not unsafe at all, and not bad for the engine.
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Old 21st Feb 2013, 21:26
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Icelanta


What part of "in Single engine airplane" in the original post did you have difficultly understanding ?

Last edited by Big Pistons Forever; 21st Feb 2013 at 21:29.
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Old 22nd Feb 2013, 07:13
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On a ME piston, just close the fuel valve of one of the engines
Icelanta: The purpose of shutting the engine down is to allow the student to practice the correct drill, to observe the indications and fly the aircraft with an engine feathered, to demonstrate minimum drag settings and to practice the restart procedure. I fail to see how your method can be of any use in meeting these training objectives.
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Old 22nd Feb 2013, 08:34
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If none spotted...

BPF quoted Icelanta's

On a ME piston, just close the fuel valve of one of the engines. It is not noticed by your student and gives you a real failure of the engine. also easy to start the engine aain by opening the fuel valve.
Hence the misunderstanding..

Carry onů
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Old 22nd Feb 2013, 12:34
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Quote:
On a ME piston, just close the fuel valve of one of the engines
Icelanta: The purpose of shutting the engine down is to allow the student to practice the correct drill, to observe the indications and fly the aircraft with an engine feathered, to demonstrate minimum drag settings and to practice the restart procedure. I fail to see how your method can be of any use in meeting these training objectives.
For learning and practising, and for training towards the Skill Test fine.

But, in real life, a sudden, complete, engine failure (which is what is being
trained for) will be a complete surprise, will not be preceded by someone
"hiding the Throttle Quadrant" and will not necessarily happen on a climb
out (most critical stage of flight and hence where Examiners test it).

Pilots need to instantly recognise an abnormal situation and apply the correct drills.

Icelanta's method seems an excellent way to confirm this for an MEP engine failure.

In both aviation and other fields I have seen people not respond correctly
(mainly timely recognition) to a real unexpected situation because its occurence
was not preceded by what they had experienced in training - hence the
start of the drills was delayed.

Specifically, for an MEP, I have seen an engine shut down (in the method
Icelanta describes) and when it went quiet on one side the pilot just
started looking around the cockpit to try and ascertain why - rather
than go straight in to "Engine Failure Drills"
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Old 22nd Feb 2013, 14:50
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Since the thread seems to have creeped over to Multi engine training I thought I would post a quote from my Piper PA44 Seminole POH

Quote

Experience has shown that the training advantage gained by pulling a mixture control or turning off the fuel to simulate an engine failure is not worth the risk assumed, therefore it is recommended that instead of using either of these procedures to simulate loss of power, the throttle be retarded slowly to the idle position. Fast reduction of power may be harmful to the engine.

Unquote

Another thing worth noting is a sudden complete failure of the engine is the least likely scenario for a real world engine failure. A partial failure or a surging engine is much more likely to occur and is almost never practiced in Multi Engine training ......

Last edited by Big Pistons Forever; 22nd Feb 2013 at 14:59.
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Old 22nd Feb 2013, 16:22
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Sorry twin again but relevant.

Aircraft N74SA accident at La Verne, CA on 03/31/2004

I saw this plane hit the ground and cartwheel along the grass, am amazed they both lived.

Yes its not a bad idea to completely shut one down once during training at altitude to go through the drill but not to do it regularly to simulate a failure. It should be a high alt drill and once completed the engine restarted before doing anything else.
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Old 22nd Feb 2013, 21:02
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Like Icelanta I utilise the system of turning off the fuel supply at least once during MEP training as the method of producing an engine failure. Done properly the student will not even notice what has been done until the engine fails. Also typically the engine will not "wind-down" completely smoothly; there will be some surging, which replecates a real engine failure more closely than covering the quadrant and retarding a throttle.

Having shut the engine down provides the opportunity to conduct those parts of the MEP course which require that an engine is shutdown and feathered.
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Old 22nd Feb 2013, 21:44
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If it was my engine cutting the fuel flow from cruise power to zero would cause the Instructor to be looking for another job unless the thing was on fire on a piston engine.

Turbine, crack on don't really care. Piston you are playing with metal and temprature gradients and really not getting value for money.

That surging is damage being done. Maybe nothing that you can see but its damaging the metal and its fatigue life.

IF YOU LOOK AFTER YOUR ENGINES THEY WILL LOOK AFTER YOU WHEN YOU REALLY NEED THEM. DON'T RAPE THEM FOR NO REASON.
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Old 22nd Feb 2013, 21:55
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AS the thread has now entered the twin engine relm , may I say:

There is almost NO training in an engine failure during descent/reduced power situation.

Leveling off in the traffic pattern in a twin, with one engine dead (but not caged) is a surprise that many pilots may not deal correctly with.
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