Good De-brief? The rules?
"Well Bloggs, how did you feel about that
I know that's an often used line ..but I possibly went to the same big teachers school as Beags and so like him lines like that, and also the dreaded " How do you think it went" were a "no no" - and I still hate it when it's an opening gambit these days when I've been under check. I think it's really unfair on the student to ask him/her to assess their own performance from the "get go" but then again I've always been a softy
Personally it's a long time since I checked anyone but once upon a time my debrief template was:
1. Start by getting the pass/fail bit out of the way (and boy I used to really hate the fails) ...
2. Tell them what you really didn't like ,
3. Discuss any points of interest/grey areas,
4. Tell them what you did like....because even in the most dire fail there's was always something the student can take away as a "well done",
Always end on a positive point for the stude (and then you can chop him/her anyway
).
Last edited by wiggy; 28th Jan 2013 at 22:04.
Who said anything about being under check? I thought the originator of the thread was asking about a training flight?
Must be a very RAF thing not liking asking a trainee what he/she thought of his own performance then?
I agree there is a difference between ab initio and professional but when you are dealing with fellow professionals what is wrong with treating them with a bit of intelligence?
I have been on several CRM courses with highly qualified human factors people and their evidence was that this was a good strategy.
Judging by the attitude here am glad am not on receiving end of your debriefs!
Must be a very RAF thing not liking asking a trainee what he/she thought of his own performance then?
I agree there is a difference between ab initio and professional but when you are dealing with fellow professionals what is wrong with treating them with a bit of intelligence?
I have been on several CRM courses with highly qualified human factors people and their evidence was that this was a good strategy.
Judging by the attitude here am glad am not on receiving end of your debriefs!
Last edited by fireflybob; 29th Jan 2013 at 17:15.
Well I suppose you could start with the time honoured phrase of :
"just a few points, mainly for my benefit"...
That's fine, I've been round the block just a bit - I know that doesn't count for much these days but despite what the HF people think I'm entitled, personally to the opinion that I, personally, still don't like the "how did you think it went" line, be it training, or a check, and I also know a lot of others who when asked don't like that approach either .....so maybe a one size fits all debrief doesn't work ... we're all individuals - right?
BTW being honest if I know I f'ed up I'm sure as hell not going to tell the trainer/checker...... I'm not paid to do the fault analysis anymore
FWIW I'm so ancient and been "here" so long I've discovered a fair number of pruners were on the end of one of my debriefs in their/my previous life (and, BTW that's scary) - best you ask them their opinion.
At the end of the day:
Negative points
Interest Points
Positive points
"just a few points, mainly for my benefit"...
I have been on several CRM courses with highly qualified human factors people and their evidence was that this was a good strategy.
BTW being honest if I know I f'ed up I'm sure as hell not going to tell the trainer/checker...... I'm not paid to do the fault analysis anymore
Judging by the attitude here am glad am not on receiving end of your debriefed!
At the end of the day:
Negative points
Interest Points
Positive points
Last edited by wiggy; 28th Jan 2013 at 22:43.
''Must be a very RAF thing not liking asking a trainee what he/she thought of his own performance then?''
Possibly - but one would hope the enlightenment would have filtered through to civilian instructor training. The reason why RAF QFIs don't ask the student how he thought it went was that they could have a very different idea of how their trip went. Of course, hearing about it it the debrief wouldn't help the score, but at least they don't get to feel awkward when they get to hear their theory debunked.
So:
1. Pass/fail first (if a test or scored sortie).
2. Start on a high note with a positive generalisation of the trip.
3. Analyse the sortie chronologicly making the points as brief as possible. If the trip didn't go well, if possible try and limit the bad points to about three biggies.
4. End on a high note. Even a bad trip can have something good that can be said about it, even if it's "At least we're still alive!"
5. And keep it brief. It's a 'de-brief', not a 'de-long!'
I went to the same instructor school as BEagle and Wiggy (and both have instructed me at some time in their career) and this is what we were expected to give as a debrief.
Possibly - but one would hope the enlightenment would have filtered through to civilian instructor training. The reason why RAF QFIs don't ask the student how he thought it went was that they could have a very different idea of how their trip went. Of course, hearing about it it the debrief wouldn't help the score, but at least they don't get to feel awkward when they get to hear their theory debunked.
So:
1. Pass/fail first (if a test or scored sortie).
2. Start on a high note with a positive generalisation of the trip.
3. Analyse the sortie chronologicly making the points as brief as possible. If the trip didn't go well, if possible try and limit the bad points to about three biggies.
4. End on a high note. Even a bad trip can have something good that can be said about it, even if it's "At least we're still alive!"
5. And keep it brief. It's a 'de-brief', not a 'de-long!'
I went to the same instructor school as BEagle and Wiggy (and both have instructed me at some time in their career) and this is what we were expected to give as a debrief.
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The "praise sandwich":
- Good stuff
- Bad stuff
- Good stuff
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As a GA instructor my opinions may be a little different to the answers you're specifically looking for but I try to de-brief with the same four point format each time. A few years ago the RNZAF hosted a conference for aero club instructors and this is what I remember/ interpreted their debriefs to be:
1. SAFETY- Anything that compromised the safety of flight is most important and should always be brought up first.
2. BRIEFING- this is your chance to clarify anything from the pre-flight briefing that may have been unclear or misunderstood. Did we actually meet the objective of the flight? Was there anything that one party found unexpected but the other was aware of (good CRM points usually come up here)?
3. DOMESTICS- thing like, is the paperwork complete? Have we left enough fuel in the aircraft? Try writing the ATIS on paper, not the back of your hand. The list goes on and on. This is the time to bring up anything relevant that doesn't fit into the other categories- I sometimes like to think of this as an airmanship review.
4. AIR EX- the specific points about the air exercise. This is when I talk about the how the student actually performed on the day and how they can improve. Using a steep turn lesson for example, it may be that the student needs to look at the horizon more often or check over/underbanking tendencies.
1. SAFETY- Anything that compromised the safety of flight is most important and should always be brought up first.
2. BRIEFING- this is your chance to clarify anything from the pre-flight briefing that may have been unclear or misunderstood. Did we actually meet the objective of the flight? Was there anything that one party found unexpected but the other was aware of (good CRM points usually come up here)?
3. DOMESTICS- thing like, is the paperwork complete? Have we left enough fuel in the aircraft? Try writing the ATIS on paper, not the back of your hand. The list goes on and on. This is the time to bring up anything relevant that doesn't fit into the other categories- I sometimes like to think of this as an airmanship review.
4. AIR EX- the specific points about the air exercise. This is when I talk about the how the student actually performed on the day and how they can improve. Using a steep turn lesson for example, it may be that the student needs to look at the horizon more often or check over/underbanking tendencies.
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I've just been through the process of becoming an RTF examiner, never having been an examiner before. This involved being assessed by a CAA Inspector, 2 written exams, a full practical and a practice 'Bloggs' de-brief.
The first point he made to me is that you NEVER give the result of the test until AFTER the de-brief. His reasoning was that as soon as you give a 'pass or fail' statement, you might as well shut up as the candidate will have stopped listening. He even nagged me during the de-brief role-play into giving the result half way through and then pointed out that I should have waited until the end.
I like the 'praise sandwich', not heard it called that before, but it's what I try to do in post-flight debriefs. I must admit to occasionally asking how they thought it went, but usually after the de-brief. Sometimes, they'll pick up on things I've not taught well or missed out, I need feedback, too!
Cheers,
TOO
The first point he made to me is that you NEVER give the result of the test until AFTER the de-brief. His reasoning was that as soon as you give a 'pass or fail' statement, you might as well shut up as the candidate will have stopped listening. He even nagged me during the de-brief role-play into giving the result half way through and then pointed out that I should have waited until the end.
I like the 'praise sandwich', not heard it called that before, but it's what I try to do in post-flight debriefs. I must admit to occasionally asking how they thought it went, but usually after the de-brief. Sometimes, they'll pick up on things I've not taught well or missed out, I need feedback, too!
Cheers,
TOO
The first point he made to me is that you NEVER give the result of the test until AFTER the de-brief.
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We are talking about line training here its not a test its a series of flights with PAx in the back with a number of things which have to be covered over the series of flights. The line check at the end is a test ish.
Now personally I find you have to have different styles depending on what you are doing.
You have 5 Main types of line training depending on the pilot.
1. First job commercially
2. New on type but has flown multicrew typed aircraft before
3. Allready typed but converting to company SOP's
4. Intial Command course.
5. Direct Entry Captain current on type.
Each of them you have different issues with and also different styles of teaching. And also different styles of debriefing.
Also to note what works well with some doesn't work well with others.
The **** sandwich approach does work well for numbers 1 and 4 but for the others it doesn't really allow for the debrief to start discussions which you really need to find out if everything is understood.
To that end the starting of a briefing with "so then whats the points from today" can actually be quite good especially when your only really dealing with the company procedure for scratching your arse. They can fly and know how to fly the machine.
Its also quite good at finding out if they actually consider themselves better than they really are.
So what makes a good one?
Lord only knows,
Personally I try and create a stress free enviroment which the person isn't on the defensive if they make a mistake.
I also have in mind that everyone learns better differently. So its really my job to change my teaching style to get the best out of them.
Don't rush.
Don't allow yourself to show that your annoyed even when you are fuming.
Make it fun.
But to be honest its mainly a personality trait. You either have a gut feel for it and do it naturally or you don't.
And know that sometimes what ever you do you just won't click with some people. 2,3,5 It really doesn't matter so much but with 1 and 4 you need to step back and give them to someone else. If it then turns out that they have issues as well its time for everyone from the training Deptment to sit down have chat about the direction things are going and to make a plan.
The first time someone is inline to get chopped it is hurrendous especially if its one fo these zero to hero's and you know they have 100k plus loans outstanding and by chopping them you have basically finished thier career. It doesn't seem to bother some trainers but it doesn't sit well with me mainly I think because I see it as my failure as an instructor/trainer. But I can understand limited resources etc etc.
Now personally I find you have to have different styles depending on what you are doing.
You have 5 Main types of line training depending on the pilot.
1. First job commercially
2. New on type but has flown multicrew typed aircraft before
3. Allready typed but converting to company SOP's
4. Intial Command course.
5. Direct Entry Captain current on type.
Each of them you have different issues with and also different styles of teaching. And also different styles of debriefing.
Also to note what works well with some doesn't work well with others.
The **** sandwich approach does work well for numbers 1 and 4 but for the others it doesn't really allow for the debrief to start discussions which you really need to find out if everything is understood.
To that end the starting of a briefing with "so then whats the points from today" can actually be quite good especially when your only really dealing with the company procedure for scratching your arse. They can fly and know how to fly the machine.
Its also quite good at finding out if they actually consider themselves better than they really are.
So what makes a good one?
Lord only knows,
Personally I try and create a stress free enviroment which the person isn't on the defensive if they make a mistake.
I also have in mind that everyone learns better differently. So its really my job to change my teaching style to get the best out of them.
Don't rush.
Don't allow yourself to show that your annoyed even when you are fuming.
Make it fun.
But to be honest its mainly a personality trait. You either have a gut feel for it and do it naturally or you don't.
And know that sometimes what ever you do you just won't click with some people. 2,3,5 It really doesn't matter so much but with 1 and 4 you need to step back and give them to someone else. If it then turns out that they have issues as well its time for everyone from the training Deptment to sit down have chat about the direction things are going and to make a plan.
The first time someone is inline to get chopped it is hurrendous especially if its one fo these zero to hero's and you know they have 100k plus loans outstanding and by chopping them you have basically finished thier career. It doesn't seem to bother some trainers but it doesn't sit well with me mainly I think because I see it as my failure as an instructor/trainer. But I can understand limited resources etc etc.
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Here are a couple of links to what is required for check ride debriefing here in the great white north. Can easily be adapted for training.
Appendix H - ACP Debriefing Guide - Transport Canada
Appendix I - C-A-L Debriefing Guideline - Transport Canada
Appendix J - Using the ACP Manual Elements - Transport Canada
Everything points back to line (operational) flying and CRM.
Appendix H - ACP Debriefing Guide - Transport Canada
Appendix I - C-A-L Debriefing Guideline - Transport Canada
Appendix J - Using the ACP Manual Elements - Transport Canada
Everything points back to line (operational) flying and CRM.
The reason why RAF QFIs don't ask the student how he thought it went was that they could have a very different idea of how their trip went. Of course, hearing about it it the debrief wouldn't help the score, but at least they don't get to feel awkward when they get to hear their theory debunked.
That's fine, I've been round the block just a bit - I know that doesn't count for much these days but despite what the HF people think I'm entitled, personally to the opinion that I, personally, still don't like the "how did you think it went" line, be it training, or a check, and I also know a lot of others who when asked don't like that approach either .....so maybe a one size fits all debrief doesn't work ... we're all individuals - right?
FWIW I'm so ancient and been "here" so long I've discovered a fair number of pruners were on the end of one of my debriefs in their/my previous life (and, BTW that's scary) - best you ask them their opinion.
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Fireflybob
Beagle
Firefly Bob is correct in many ways. Noticeable Beagle hasn't followed up his statement!
I seem to remember that change coming into our airline debriefing around mid 90s and as far as I am aware is standard practice these days in most UK airlines.
The idea is that you are attempting to get the student/candidate to identify his own mistakes and weak points. Not only is this a valuable teaching aid it allows the examiner or instructor to see how the student/candidate is evaluating himself. A pilot who cannot see or admit the mistakes he is making is a potential danger in any cockpit or flight deck. Self-efficacy is also the basis for threat and error management and should always be encouraged.
Where there is any possible misunderstanding of what has happened during the detail, this misunderstanding is better proven to the examiner/instructor by the student/candidate describing it without initial prompting by the examiner/instructor.
In addition, allowing the student/candidate to lead the pre flight de brief is less stressful and more friendlier than just launching into the old style lecture by the examiner/instructor which can create an atmosphere were the student/candidate may not want to participate, especially if the detail has not gone very well. Every instructor & pilot would do well to remember that its always better to recognise your own mistakes rather than have someone else tell you about them!
The final point, which to me is the most useful, is that the old Tiger Moth instructors lecture style debrief always took much longer because a lot of students and especially test candidates want to continually argue each point in fact I can remember saying to many, "can we just be clear here who is the examiner and who is the candidate"! Denial is less of a problem with the method FF Bob and myself advocate!
I should add that's its important for students/candidates to be aware that you are using this style of debrief beforehand. I can remember one rather awkward pilot saying." You get paid to tell me how I've done not the other way around!
"Well Bloggs, how did you feel about that - any points you'd want to mention?"
Nope, that's a total cop-out...
Firefly Bob is correct in many ways. Noticeable Beagle hasn't followed up his statement!
I seem to remember that change coming into our airline debriefing around mid 90s and as far as I am aware is standard practice these days in most UK airlines.
The idea is that you are attempting to get the student/candidate to identify his own mistakes and weak points. Not only is this a valuable teaching aid it allows the examiner or instructor to see how the student/candidate is evaluating himself. A pilot who cannot see or admit the mistakes he is making is a potential danger in any cockpit or flight deck. Self-efficacy is also the basis for threat and error management and should always be encouraged.
Where there is any possible misunderstanding of what has happened during the detail, this misunderstanding is better proven to the examiner/instructor by the student/candidate describing it without initial prompting by the examiner/instructor.
In addition, allowing the student/candidate to lead the pre flight de brief is less stressful and more friendlier than just launching into the old style lecture by the examiner/instructor which can create an atmosphere were the student/candidate may not want to participate, especially if the detail has not gone very well. Every instructor & pilot would do well to remember that its always better to recognise your own mistakes rather than have someone else tell you about them!
The final point, which to me is the most useful, is that the old Tiger Moth instructors lecture style debrief always took much longer because a lot of students and especially test candidates want to continually argue each point in fact I can remember saying to many, "can we just be clear here who is the examiner and who is the candidate"! Denial is less of a problem with the method FF Bob and myself advocate!
I should add that's its important for students/candidates to be aware that you are using this style of debrief beforehand. I can remember one rather awkward pilot saying." You get paid to tell me how I've done not the other way around!
Firefly Bob is correct in many ways. Noticeable BEagle hasn't followed up his statement!
This huggy-fluffy "Well, how was it for you, darling?" bolleaux has no place in aviation. A quick chronological resumé on the salient points, observations on poor compliance to rules and regulations delivered in a constructive manner should suffice. The vast majority of my debriefs were conducted following what the civil world calls 'line checks' on qualified pilots, or on pilots undergoing type / role conversion.
Anyway, the pilot being checked should always be offered the opportunity to ask questions / put his/her point of view forward at the end of the formal debrief.
It was always my aim to get the debrief over as soon as possible after landing. If on an overseas trip, it'd be "OK, drop your bag, my room in 10 min for a quick debrief, then the night is all yours". Regrettably another instructor* in the fleet would take over a corner of an hotel bar and let the debrief drag on for ages. If we spotted him doing this, we'd keep sending the bar staff / sundry bar flies over to interrupt....
*He of the horrible training shoes!