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hold checks @ 90,60,30

Old 21st Nov 2012, 06:48
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hold checks @ 90,60,30

Hi, could someone please share there method for checks when turning towards inbound leg and passing through the headings of 90,60 and 30.
Would it be correct expecting to see on an RBI 90 - 75. 60-50. 30-25. (right hand) I read this and differs from what I was taught ? Confused !
Thanks.
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Old 21st Nov 2012, 06:57
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At 90 degrees there should be about 10 degrees of lag (80) and at 45 it should be about 5 degrees (40) of lag in the ADF. The exact amount will depend on how much dip the ADF has. In general, a better quality ADF will have more lag.
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Old 21st Nov 2012, 12:56
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When you reach the end of the outbound leg, if you hit the gate that is 30 degrees off the inbound leg and you have to turn 180 degrees.

Therefore, when you hit 90 degrees to go, all being well you should have 15 degrees to go to the inbound leg. The needle will dip into the turn, so you would see 10 degrees to go.

At 60, all being well you should have 10 degrees to go, with dip will show 5

at 30 you should have 5 degrees to go, with dip will show that you are on it already.

When you get to the end of the turn, the needle may show you are 5 degrees through the inbound, as you roll off the dip the needle should come back to the inbound track.
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Old 21st Nov 2012, 13:00
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I was taught;

60 to go - ADF should read in-bound track
30 to go - ADF should read in-bound track + 5 deg
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Old 21st Nov 2012, 13:35
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Depends how much dip you have, typically 5-10 degrees, you need to know what it will be on your own aircraft really.
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Old 21st Nov 2012, 15:11
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I was taught the same methid as Parson. This was on a Seneca with 10 degrees dip as I remember.
60 to go needle on the inbound. Assuming this is 10 to go as my book suggests cancelled out by 10 degrees dip ?
30 to go needle on the inbound. Assuming again 5 to go is cancelled out and results in inbound + 5 degrees ?

On left hand hold would this make sense.
Inbound of 279. 60 to go should be 279. 30 to go should be 274.

Just want it clear in my head. Lol
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Old 21st Nov 2012, 16:44
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Not to forget the effect of wind!
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Old 21st Nov 2012, 17:16
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I don't think i altered the 60's & 30's ??
Definitely remember moving the gate into the wind by max drift.
I wish i could find my hand from Bristol on this part, happy with everything else !
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Old 21st Nov 2012, 19:38
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Forgive a potential ignorant question, but is this stuff vital to flying a reasonable accurate hold?

I was never taught the gate stuff during my IR, and I have never (since the IR anyway ) had any trouble flying holds, and have never had my flying of them questioned.
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Old 21st Nov 2012, 19:49
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How did you monitor your hold ? Just roll out on inbound?
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Old 21st Nov 2012, 20:53
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monitored by checking whether inside or outside the holding be checking the QDR at the end of the outbound leg. I think this is partly what is being referred to above, but it's just not something I'm familiar with in the detail described.

I have never found my current method to produce sub standard holds, but am more than open to learn of any better way to improve accuracy.
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Old 21st Nov 2012, 21:02
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I was never taught the gate stuff during my IR, and I have never (since the IR anyway ) had any trouble flying holds, and have never had my flying of them questioned.
The methods above are there as a double check of the progress through the turn, and whether you should roll out early or continue through the inbound track to get yourself established.

Ultimately you should have a pretty good idea of the wind, and the gate is usually enough of an indication of if you're wide or tight on the hold, but these are there as a back up. Often I find these checks are actually too much for people, and some end up doing mental gymnastics trying to come up with some figures rather than just looking at the picture in front of them.

At the end of the day, all you have to do is hold the inbound track for "a reasonable amount of time" which leaves plenty of wiggle room for an examiner, and in the real world noone really cares as long as you stay in the protected area.

One piece of advice I heard with holds was "wide and long, can't go wrong" - so basically since you aren't assessed on the overall time of the hold any more, if you intentionally position yourself a bit wide and a bit far (while making sure you stay in the protected area), you will always have to roll out early onto the inbound track, and that's the only bit that's actually assessed.

Last edited by RTN11; 21st Nov 2012 at 21:05.
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Old 21st Nov 2012, 21:29
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Thanks for the insight.

I would tend to sway towards the keeping things simple train of thought. A simple check or two is okay, I personally wouldn't want to be trying to do a lot, as normally there's something else to be thinking about.
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Old 21st Nov 2012, 21:47
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It's funny, for an IR test, people will have the plates well in advance and probably make a ton of notes over them about the wind, the gate, what type of entry to expect, all sorts.

In real life you get a hold sprung on you from nowhere and have a very limited time to check the plate for the entry type, and what you're going to do. Still works out fine in the end though.
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