Spinning Dilema
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 271
Likes: 1
From: Camden, NSW, Australia
Nishko, In the C152 you will be at or close to the forward C of G limit IF you are within weight limit. So, the aircraft is actually reluctant to spin. I had some short Instructor trainees where the C152 would not spin until I got to adjust their seat right back (mine is already right back). Unfortunately they then don't reach the pedals and can't recover. However they can watch me recover to al least have some idea.
If you flew the C152 overweight, then you should not have been there AT ALL.
Spinning from 2800' ?? How deep can you go underground? Answer 6'.
Without knowing the particular situation, it's hard to tell what the examiner / instructor had in mind. Perhaps s/he just wanted you to say "we can not do that" and explain why, if necessary with calculations. Some month ago there was a thread here about flying the C152 overweight. Do a search and see what the wisdom was there.
Remember - if you don't get your rating today because you did not spin - you can come back tomorrow. If you do a spin that you should not have done - you might not be able to come tomorrow. Unless your name is Lazarus.
If you flew the C152 overweight, then you should not have been there AT ALL.
Spinning from 2800' ?? How deep can you go underground? Answer 6'.
Without knowing the particular situation, it's hard to tell what the examiner / instructor had in mind. Perhaps s/he just wanted you to say "we can not do that" and explain why, if necessary with calculations. Some month ago there was a thread here about flying the C152 overweight. Do a search and see what the wisdom was there.
Remember - if you don't get your rating today because you did not spin - you can come back tomorrow. If you do a spin that you should not have done - you might not be able to come tomorrow. Unless your name is Lazarus.
Joined: Jun 1999
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
From: HERE
Excuse me folks but isn't all this spinning debate a bit pointless ?- a PPL no longer has to opt for full spin practice/recovery - but he does have to demonstrate recovery at the incipient stage. Isn't the whole point that the CAA/JAR set-up is a mess - they do not require spin recovery as part of the skill test. They do, however, want slow flight demonstrated and stall recovery in various configurations, including recovery at the incipient stage, recovery from a spiral dive,etc -so why does an instructor have to do spin entry/recovery in the revalidation flight? The intentional spin entry is NOTHING like the inadvertant spin - please believe me - and the CAA know that. The whole thrust of training now is to ensure your aircraft never gets anywhere near the conditions for spinnning and, if you have ignored everything up to that point, it does start to happen - you stop it right away! If, however, you do enter a spin because of your aircraft's total situation - you are not going to recover, anyway!
The whole training scenario is a nightmare - much of it based on aircraft like the dear old 'Tiggy' - Birch and Bramson and many since, have all put in their 'ten pennorth', to the point where we now have a total 'hybrid' product. Remember BLAC? Remember RAeC? Remember all the other changes that have taken place? JAR was one thing which, incidentally, the CAA still have not come to terms with - now we have NPPL - a new administration for that at Shoreham?, apparently - microlights are now devolved, etc.,etc - as Roger Bacon used to say, 'WIHIH'?, or similar. I have been instructing and examining for over 30 years and all I can say is for God's sake stop messing around! The Bard may as well have written 'To spin, or not to spin?, that is the question' - because that has been debated so, so many times during my 30 years and, doubtless, long before that - and nobody knows or cares - CAA is to be privatised - no question - just like Railtrack and all the other examples of failure ( NATS included) - the people who set our rules and regs are transient - many are now non-aviation people - most are there to see privatisation through - those that really do know their aviation are lost among the 'high fliers' who know about selling things off. Each and every person who gets into the CAA in any position of authority goes off on their own personal ego trip. sets up a study group, pretends to consult the aviation community, then changes the rules - see current debate on changes to FI revalidations - then they retire and along comes another new broom - I could go on but I shan't!
We still have Doctors who can't speak English and never have to prove their qualification, let alone sit a renewal test - we have teachers who qualify once only, etc.,etc - but Aviation? Dreadful - won't be safe until we make it impossible for anybody to be current except on the day they do a test! Our Aviation attitude should have already cost us two World Wars, but we got lucky - have we learned? Have we hell! Who is going to pull all this together? Who will rationalise Instructor guides, examiner handbooks, LASORS, etc.,etc ?Nobody, is my guess! If anybody with an iota of influence at CAA reads this AND they will probably still be ther in two years - PLEASE, PLEASE - GET A GRIP!!!
I challenge you to produce a simple matrix, which people can understand, that sets out the current regulatory position on licensing - all the different kinds of launching into the air - and what is involved/required to be legal and properly trained and qualified - I know there will be no takers - because the ground is still moving - AND NOBODY HAS TAKEN, OR BEEN GIVEN, OVERALL RESPONSIBILITY. Anybody who sounds like they have are probably mainly empowered to sell off the CAA AND MAY WELL NOT HAVE EVER FLOWN IN THEIR LIFE!
Sorry, folks - but we just keep going round in circles due to the frustration of a headless, aimless, clueless administration! How dare they talk about Communication, CRM,etc.,etc? We are in danger of only being licensed to fly in our own National airspace - the EU and JAA is a mockery! We are not allowed to fly in French airspace, public transport, for example, over the age of 60 - great! The French monitor that - do we check to see if the French are doing the same? No! We have not even reciprocated! So, French registered aircraft fly in our airspace every day with pilots over 60 - prove me wrong! You can't, because we do not monitor that! NPPL - what a nonsense! Are we able to tell if the aircraft just going off to Calais is piloted by a NPPL holder? No! Do we have the legal right to prevent such a person going foreign? No! Now this gives rise to so many similar anomolies, all of which the CAA and JAA are either oblivious to, or don't give a sod, that I can no longer bear to rant on. Just consider how many foreign pilots are working here, then how many UK subjects have flying jobs in other EU States - try to find out - you may be surprised! JAA/CAA /EU - Humbug! - I am tired, so are so many of my colleagues - I cannot be bothered to bore you any more with all this! There is so much wrong with aviation regulation and administration at present - it will end in tears! What a great shame! We used to be the best! Just like our football, we are now just 'hype', bull!!!! and 'jobsworth' - happy flying, if regulation allows you to get airborne! Goodnight!
The whole training scenario is a nightmare - much of it based on aircraft like the dear old 'Tiggy' - Birch and Bramson and many since, have all put in their 'ten pennorth', to the point where we now have a total 'hybrid' product. Remember BLAC? Remember RAeC? Remember all the other changes that have taken place? JAR was one thing which, incidentally, the CAA still have not come to terms with - now we have NPPL - a new administration for that at Shoreham?, apparently - microlights are now devolved, etc.,etc - as Roger Bacon used to say, 'WIHIH'?, or similar. I have been instructing and examining for over 30 years and all I can say is for God's sake stop messing around! The Bard may as well have written 'To spin, or not to spin?, that is the question' - because that has been debated so, so many times during my 30 years and, doubtless, long before that - and nobody knows or cares - CAA is to be privatised - no question - just like Railtrack and all the other examples of failure ( NATS included) - the people who set our rules and regs are transient - many are now non-aviation people - most are there to see privatisation through - those that really do know their aviation are lost among the 'high fliers' who know about selling things off. Each and every person who gets into the CAA in any position of authority goes off on their own personal ego trip. sets up a study group, pretends to consult the aviation community, then changes the rules - see current debate on changes to FI revalidations - then they retire and along comes another new broom - I could go on but I shan't!
We still have Doctors who can't speak English and never have to prove their qualification, let alone sit a renewal test - we have teachers who qualify once only, etc.,etc - but Aviation? Dreadful - won't be safe until we make it impossible for anybody to be current except on the day they do a test! Our Aviation attitude should have already cost us two World Wars, but we got lucky - have we learned? Have we hell! Who is going to pull all this together? Who will rationalise Instructor guides, examiner handbooks, LASORS, etc.,etc ?Nobody, is my guess! If anybody with an iota of influence at CAA reads this AND they will probably still be ther in two years - PLEASE, PLEASE - GET A GRIP!!!
I challenge you to produce a simple matrix, which people can understand, that sets out the current regulatory position on licensing - all the different kinds of launching into the air - and what is involved/required to be legal and properly trained and qualified - I know there will be no takers - because the ground is still moving - AND NOBODY HAS TAKEN, OR BEEN GIVEN, OVERALL RESPONSIBILITY. Anybody who sounds like they have are probably mainly empowered to sell off the CAA AND MAY WELL NOT HAVE EVER FLOWN IN THEIR LIFE!
Sorry, folks - but we just keep going round in circles due to the frustration of a headless, aimless, clueless administration! How dare they talk about Communication, CRM,etc.,etc? We are in danger of only being licensed to fly in our own National airspace - the EU and JAA is a mockery! We are not allowed to fly in French airspace, public transport, for example, over the age of 60 - great! The French monitor that - do we check to see if the French are doing the same? No! We have not even reciprocated! So, French registered aircraft fly in our airspace every day with pilots over 60 - prove me wrong! You can't, because we do not monitor that! NPPL - what a nonsense! Are we able to tell if the aircraft just going off to Calais is piloted by a NPPL holder? No! Do we have the legal right to prevent such a person going foreign? No! Now this gives rise to so many similar anomolies, all of which the CAA and JAA are either oblivious to, or don't give a sod, that I can no longer bear to rant on. Just consider how many foreign pilots are working here, then how many UK subjects have flying jobs in other EU States - try to find out - you may be surprised! JAA/CAA /EU - Humbug! - I am tired, so are so many of my colleagues - I cannot be bothered to bore you any more with all this! There is so much wrong with aviation regulation and administration at present - it will end in tears! What a great shame! We used to be the best! Just like our football, we are now just 'hype', bull!!!! and 'jobsworth' - happy flying, if regulation allows you to get airborne! Goodnight!
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 2,517
Likes: 0
From: Vancouver Island
Immelman:
Well said.
Aviation is so fu..ed up it is probably beyond saving.
Here in Canada we have our own share of truly corrupt and dangerous to aviation so called Transport Canada officials, so don't feel bad you are not alone.
The good people are leaving because it is hopeless trying to do the job they know should be done.
We are left with self important losers that can't make it anywhere but in Government where regardless of how they perform they are protected 100% because that is how it works.
I have decided to just do my own thing and try and pass on some of what almost fifty years in aviation has taught me in the hope that aviation can be saved.
Meanwhile I will teach all my customers " students " to hold any Transport Canada official in utter contempt, unless that official shows they are truly professional and dedicated people.
Thankfully we still have some good ones left.
By the way you will note that I do not post anonymously, I use my real name and am willing to back up my feelings and opinions in these matters.
Cat Driver:
....................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
Well said.
Aviation is so fu..ed up it is probably beyond saving.
Here in Canada we have our own share of truly corrupt and dangerous to aviation so called Transport Canada officials, so don't feel bad you are not alone.
The good people are leaving because it is hopeless trying to do the job they know should be done.
We are left with self important losers that can't make it anywhere but in Government where regardless of how they perform they are protected 100% because that is how it works.
I have decided to just do my own thing and try and pass on some of what almost fifty years in aviation has taught me in the hope that aviation can be saved.
Meanwhile I will teach all my customers " students " to hold any Transport Canada official in utter contempt, unless that official shows they are truly professional and dedicated people.
Thankfully we still have some good ones left.
By the way you will note that I do not post anonymously, I use my real name and am willing to back up my feelings and opinions in these matters.
Cat Driver:
....................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
Joined: Dec 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 3,762
Likes: 424
From: GA, USA
Spinning is no longer a PPl requirement,but recovery from a homicidal student is.
Plenty have tried to kill me with crosscontrolled stall recoveries....
If it hadn't been for my lightning speed reflexes I would still be afraid to die.
WHO'S NEXT?
Plenty have tried to kill me with crosscontrolled stall recoveries....
If it hadn't been for my lightning speed reflexes I would still be afraid to die.
WHO'S NEXT?
