C172 and check lists
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As far as circuits are concerned I am firmly in the camp that you should be able to glide the runway from the circuit unless local restrictions defer this. It is also what we look for when conducting a flight test, so dont think it went out with the tiger moth.......
Whats this fixation about being able to glide to the runway, do you take off backwards then so you can glide back to the runway or perhaps you teach turnbacks. Most likely place in the circuit to have engine failure is on take off with full power selected surely!
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I would not think to land the Caravan, or Caravan amphibian without reference to the prelanding checklist.
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I think it's horses for courses. As a caravan pilot and examiner I have the checklists committed to memory and wold never use it on final. I fly a Dornier normally and we don't use a checklist on final for that either. It would be to distracting.
However if you are not 100% current on type the. Using a checklist if needed can only enhance safety. Use what's suits you're mission. But don't assume your mission is the same as someone else's.
However if you are not 100% current on type the. Using a checklist if needed can only enhance safety. Use what's suits you're mission. But don't assume your mission is the same as someone else's.
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But don't assume your mission is the same as someone else's.
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However there are many ways to skin a cat....
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Frankly, the CRAP check is a load of crap.
Carb Ht - Cold - Check the POH, there will be no mention of putting carb heat to cold. If it was required for the approach, it should remain hot all the way to the ground.
Runway - Clear - If it wasn't, you wouldn't be continuing the approach.
Approach - Stable - again, if it wasn't you'd be doing something about it. This isn't a checklist item.
Permission - To land - well, a lot of ops take place at an airfield where permission will never be given. A/G only, or no radio at all. Where does this fit in on your checklist.
Instructors who teach these kinds of checks are only trying to make flying more complicated. I bet they have a 500' point on the approach which you must hit at exactly 500' every time, and exact power settings for the approach no matter what the wind. Flying an aircraft is always a variable, and cannot really be categorised into this nonesense check.
Pre-landing checks on the otherhand must be completed, including gear down and other type specific items. These should be done long before the final approach, so on finals all you are doing is flying the aircraft. I would always expect pre-landing checks to be memory items, as they are usually done downwind which is the busiest part of any circuit.
Carb Ht - Cold - Check the POH, there will be no mention of putting carb heat to cold. If it was required for the approach, it should remain hot all the way to the ground.
Runway - Clear - If it wasn't, you wouldn't be continuing the approach.
Approach - Stable - again, if it wasn't you'd be doing something about it. This isn't a checklist item.
Permission - To land - well, a lot of ops take place at an airfield where permission will never be given. A/G only, or no radio at all. Where does this fit in on your checklist.
Instructors who teach these kinds of checks are only trying to make flying more complicated. I bet they have a 500' point on the approach which you must hit at exactly 500' every time, and exact power settings for the approach no matter what the wind. Flying an aircraft is always a variable, and cannot really be categorised into this nonesense check.
Pre-landing checks on the otherhand must be completed, including gear down and other type specific items. These should be done long before the final approach, so on finals all you are doing is flying the aircraft. I would always expect pre-landing checks to be memory items, as they are usually done downwind which is the busiest part of any circuit.
Last edited by RTN11; 18th Dec 2011 at 22:10.
I have got to say I sure agree with that !
The purpose of checks should IMO be to ensure safety of flight important items are properly configured. It is not to teach you how to fly the aircraft, that is why you get those stupidly long flight school checklists. My C 172 prelanding checklist, to be memorized by my students is
Fuel................both quantity checked
Mixture............rich
Brakes.............checked
Carb Heat........as required.
I see a lot poster rubbish so called "airliner" check list methodologies. I think they fundamentally do not understand the under lying philosophy behind big aircraft checks. They have two features that IMO are entirely relevant to small aircraft and particularly ab intio flight instruction
1) They impose a consistent, logical, and predicable order in managing the aircraft and its systems, and
2) They are designed as a flows. That is all the actions follow a predicable pattern around the cockpit. In my checklist for the C 172 every check starts at the fuel selector and makes a counterclockwise circle around the instrument panel and finishes at the engine controls.
The purpose of checks should IMO be to ensure safety of flight important items are properly configured. It is not to teach you how to fly the aircraft, that is why you get those stupidly long flight school checklists. My C 172 prelanding checklist, to be memorized by my students is
Fuel................both quantity checked
Mixture............rich
Brakes.............checked
Carb Heat........as required.
I see a lot poster rubbish so called "airliner" check list methodologies. I think they fundamentally do not understand the under lying philosophy behind big aircraft checks. They have two features that IMO are entirely relevant to small aircraft and particularly ab intio flight instruction
1) They impose a consistent, logical, and predicable order in managing the aircraft and its systems, and
2) They are designed as a flows. That is all the actions follow a predicable pattern around the cockpit. In my checklist for the C 172 every check starts at the fuel selector and makes a counterclockwise circle around the instrument panel and finishes at the engine controls.
Last edited by Big Pistons Forever; 18th Dec 2011 at 22:33.
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What you cannot commit that to memory!? I flew a Citation, Navajo, Aztec, Seneca, Apache, C421
I can't imagine what excuse I would come up with, if memory failed me, I was not using a checklist, and I missed something important. So, for planes I fly, particularly when I'm not really recent on the type, I read the paper checklist. But, so you know I'm not a total rouge, I don't use the paper checklist while flying my 150!
However, if posts I read give me to understand that some pilots (and let's talk Caravan, 'cause that's my most recent project) will purposefully not refer to the checklist I provide, which is associated with the flight manual supplement I write, what do I do tho change that attitude? If I approve the modification of an aircraft, and that modification requires a Flight Manual Supplement and changed checklist, how do I convince the pilots it's worth the effort to refer to the checklist when they fly the plane? Will pilots who would not refer to my checklist, read my Flight Manual Supplement? Will they fly the plane at the changed speeds, and with the changed procedures? Or just decide that they know better?
The approval does say "operate in accordance with...."
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Being able to glide somewhere that has a fire engine at the ready.
As personel that are trained to deal with aircraft crashes and have the equipment to cut you out.
Large open space even if you don't get the runway.
Your car is parked there.
There is less chance of hitting a member of the public.
There is a emergency plan with all the services for dealing with a crash on this site.
Nah your right Pull what lets not bother going for the airport if possible, stick it in a field or housing estate your chances of survival won't be changed in the slightest. Right bitch though all that emergency gear a road away and a fence in between. As for the turn back again that will get you outside the fence might as well not bother and have a decent shot at putting it somewhere you have some control over the arrival.
As personel that are trained to deal with aircraft crashes and have the equipment to cut you out.
Large open space even if you don't get the runway.
Your car is parked there.
There is less chance of hitting a member of the public.
There is a emergency plan with all the services for dealing with a crash on this site.
Nah your right Pull what lets not bother going for the airport if possible, stick it in a field or housing estate your chances of survival won't be changed in the slightest. Right bitch though all that emergency gear a road away and a fence in between. As for the turn back again that will get you outside the fence might as well not bother and have a decent shot at putting it somewhere you have some control over the arrival.
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Being able to glide somewhere that has a fire engine at the ready.
As personel that are trained to deal with aircraft crashes and have the equipment to cut you out.
Large open space even if you don't get the runway.
Your car is parked there.
There is less chance of hitting a member of the public.
There is a emergency plan with all the services for dealing with a crash on this site.
As personel that are trained to deal with aircraft crashes and have the equipment to cut you out.
Large open space even if you don't get the runway.
Your car is parked there.
There is less chance of hitting a member of the public.
There is a emergency plan with all the services for dealing with a crash on this site.
As for your car, that would be the least of my worries. Unless I knew something was wrong with the flight and needed to make a speedy getaway!
Obviously you don't want to leave yourself with the housing estate, but if there are other suitable landing sites, I wouldn't worry too much about being out of glide range of the airfield.
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I was not using a checklist, and I missed something important.
Mind you if you need a checklist to remind you to put the wheels down you probably need one to remind you of your name.
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Aye thats proberly best for you pull what save pointless debriefs and dinsour practises still being taught.
I am quite happy minimising my risk exposure flying aircraft.
Thats the crux of it in the circuit have an escape plan. BUt also think as well about where your going to have the best result god forbid anything happens.
Is it going to be Famer Dunks tattie park which the wagons are going to get bogged down in getting to you. Or the airfield with its clapped out old landy with a fire bucket of sand and the doris from the cafe. Which is going to be there in under 5 mins along with anyone else thats on the field all of which will have a clue about aircraft.?
But o no its more important to teach someone how to fly an airliner in an old clapped out single engine piston than exposing not only yourself and student who will be blissfully unaware but also the general public to your poor risk managment and poor example of PIC skills.
The sad thing is it just posions the standards for everyone when your zero to hero comes out and then teaches the same ****e to ppls who have absoultely zero interest flying an airliner.
I am quite happy minimising my risk exposure flying aircraft.
but if there are other suitable landing sites
Is it going to be Famer Dunks tattie park which the wagons are going to get bogged down in getting to you. Or the airfield with its clapped out old landy with a fire bucket of sand and the doris from the cafe. Which is going to be there in under 5 mins along with anyone else thats on the field all of which will have a clue about aircraft.?
But o no its more important to teach someone how to fly an airliner in an old clapped out single engine piston than exposing not only yourself and student who will be blissfully unaware but also the general public to your poor risk managment and poor example of PIC skills.
The sad thing is it just posions the standards for everyone when your zero to hero comes out and then teaches the same ****e to ppls who have absoultely zero interest flying an airliner.
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to remind you to put the wheels down
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Simple aircraft, like the C172, should mean simple operating procedures. By all means use a checklist, but there is really no necessity to do so. Pilot DAR's also shows this to be the case in Canada: "a checklist or placards that enable the aircraft to be operated in accordance with the limitations specified". This text doesn't mandate the use of a checklist, it merely provides guidance. And if my memory serves my right, I didn't use one during any of my GFT's either (one in Australia, one in the UK). Nor did I use one while flying a Baron on my IR "Downunder".
And if you want to bring up airliner type parallels, my airborne checklist are simplicity themselves. Three sections: After T/O (two items), Approach (two items) and Before Landing (three items). These are performed by the pilot not flying.
PM
And if you want to bring up airliner type parallels, my airborne checklist are simplicity themselves. Three sections: After T/O (two items), Approach (two items) and Before Landing (three items). These are performed by the pilot not flying.
PM
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pointless debriefs and dinsour practises