Flying IFR and Applied Instrument Restriction

[Needles Crossed]

Hi Guys,

Can anyone shed some light on whether an FI with a current IR but with the Applied IF restriction, can instruct for PPL or SEP issue in IMC or under IFR? Consider the following circumstances: student and instructor on a night cross country flight (in VMC) needing to land at an airport which only accepts IFR flights at night, or low cloud base requiring an IFR climb to maintain VMC on top. Would the instructor be able to upgrade to IFR legally whilst maintaining his instructor role? Would the student need to stop logging flight time for the period during which the flight is operated under IFR?

Have been looking around but it seems like there is no clear answer to this!

Cheers

[bingofuel]

You are teaching the student to fly day VFR, or to attain a night qualification. I would suggest taking a student flying at night to an airport they cannot fly into is not fair on the student, as it has little training value and going IMC to get VMC on top (which is not VFR) is not a great example to set,
The student cannot log IMC flight, although you could maybe argue it as instrument appreciation for the course.

[mad_jock]

I have done 10 night quals in an airport that is in class G which you are by default IFR from the start of your flight to the end of your flights.

Its part and parcel for flying at night in the UK.

Also any pilot can fly IFR by just following the rules. There is no special qualification for doing it. The only thing you have to do is stay within the restrictions while you do it. ie VMC and all the other stuff if you are a plain PPL with no instrument quals.

Climbing IMC then going VMC on top to train I have always disagreed with. More for duty of care to the student of being not able to see a landing site in the event of engine failure.

[Whopity]

There is no special qualification for doing it

Not for a UK licence, but there is for a JAA Licence JAR-FCL 1.175 which is specifically referred to in the ANO Schedule 7

Can anyone shed some light on whether an FI with a current IR but with the Applied IF restriction, can instruct for PPL or SEP issue in IMC or under IFR?

Yes; the FI privileges include basic IF but you cannot teach Applied IF i.e. Instrument Approaches.

[BEagle]

Climbing IMC then going VMC on top to train I have always disagreed with. More for duty of care to the student of being not able to see a landing site in the event of engine failure.

As is the case for pretty well any instrument approach flown in IMC in a SE aeroplane.....

The statistical likelihood of an engine failure in a properly-maintained SE aeroplane is actually pretty low.

[JUST-local]

I tend to find vmc on top a bit of a waste of time for the PPL course, by the time I have got on top in most cases the student has been too giddy or scared? to get much out of it.
Save it for a better day and do some ground school.

[mad_jock]

Very true BEagle but its completely different doing it on ones tod compared to having a paying student onboard unless they are actually in a course to learn how to do such a thing.

And also if the student isn't able to log that bit of the hours the flight stops being a training flight. Then they are a paying pax you need an AOC and AOC ops single engine arn't allowed to fly IMC.

It could be a whole heap of trouble for not alot of gain for the student.

[RTN11]

Along the same lines - I still have my no night restriction.

If i'm out close to sunset with a PPL student, and we get back just after official night does that make the flight illegal? I'm not teaching for the gain of the night qualification, and the student obviously wouldn't be able to log the night flying for gain of any qualification, but I would still be exercising the privaleges of my FI(A) at night.

Not a huge issue anyway, should have it removed next month.

[BEagle]

And also if the student isn't able to log that bit of the hours the flight stops being a training flight.

Not so. It is simply part of Ex19.

[Cows getting bigger]

I must admit that I sometimes find getting on top of the cloud quite useful. Maybe I'm looking for a horizon for some S&L etc or we need to play around in Ex10 territory. As Beagle say, the trip can also help with a bit of mandatory IF.

That said, I wouldn't waste too much of my student's money on spending a significant amount of time in cloud.

[Needles Crossed]

I would not plan to fly IFR whilst conducting PPL training with students but am rather looking into my actual limitations as an FI holding an IR. Unfortunately I could not find any clear cut definition of 'Applied Instruments' although I believe it is commonly interpreted as instrument procedures and approaches. All I am basically trying to find out is whether I can legally use my IR privileges if at all necessary, and whether the student will need to stop logging flight time (obviously s/he will not log any instrument time).

[mad_jock]

If its because the wx has turned on you and there is a valid safety reason for you using your IR I really don't think anyone will get in a bother about it.

[Whopity]

and we get back just after official night does that make the flight illegal? I'm not teaching for the gain of the night qualification,

The no night limitation means you do not have the privilege of giving instruction at night, it is not solely for the purpose of the night qualification. The flight is not illegal, you just can't count the part conducted after official night as instruction. There is no requirement to log take-off and landing times so who will know?