Fast instructor ratings?

[Genghis the Engineer]

I'm not an instructor, I am a CPL with 4-figure hours, and also happen to be a qualified university lecturer with teaching qualifications in a few other things, and quite a few years practice checking out new syndicate members - none of whom ever subsequently crashed the syndicate aeroplanes, so I can't have got it all too wrong. CPL + a couple of degrees in aeronautical engineering give me confidence I can handle a bit of theory if I need to.

Adding all that up, and an interesting spare-time opportunity or two on the horizon, it might be quite useful to be an instructor.

CRI would tick one box, but FI(R) would tick a lot more. [No strong views about full FI for now, it wouldn't give me anything extra in terms of my personal wants and needs.]

I can probably find the money for either - certainly CRI is easy to fund, and given a decent run-up, FI(R) do-able. My problem however is time, which I never have enough of, and my day job is pretty demanding. I know that I learn fastest if I do it intensively anyhow - as I suspect do many people.


So, here's the question - not cutting corners or standards, and expecting to take some time off work, stay next to the flying school and devote every sensible available hour to my studies (clearly I need a little time for food, drink, sleep, and PPrune)...

- How fast could I do an FI(R) course, and where?
- And how much faster could I do it if I had a CRI first?

Assuming that I'm only interested in SEP, and function primarily in JAAland/EASAland - can anybody give me some good solid advice on this?

G

[S-Works]

Unless you want to teach ab initio PPL students or night flying then an FI is a waste of time and money. The CRI would suit your purposes perfectly. Will be cheaper and faster to obtain and much easier to maintain.

You will also be able to operate without the supervision required for a restricted FI.

[Cows getting bigger]

Full time FI - about 4 weeks. TPC Denham or Carol Cooper at Andrewsfield regularly get good press.

Can't comment on CRI other than there are none in our neck of the woods. Makes you wonder why.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Yes and no.

A colleague in the test flying world is using light aeroplanes to provide test flying instruction to aeronautical engineering students who don't have pilots licences. He's currently using a couple of ex-military TPs who have FI ratings,but such people are in short supply. We don't *think* I can do that with my CPL alone, but CRI is only good for existing licenced pilots.

G

[blagger]

I did my FI course in 4 weeks, was lucky with weather though and I had 600hrs instructional before then as well. I woudl say 6 weeks is nearer the norm.

CRI is an OK rating, but remember it is only 3hrs flying - it really is a bare minimum to understand the very basic elements of teaching, I have experienced a wide variety of instructional abilities and standards from CRIs.

I think the only benefit you get from CRI towards and FI is the teaching and learnign groundschool.

For your purposes you could speak to someone like On Track and do a CRI with some top-up flying from a good FIC to cover some of the more developed handling exercises?

[Whopity]

To become a CRI you really need a specific purpose or you are not going to pick up much instructional flying amongst the clubs and schools. In terms of saving, you will be exempt the 25 hour teaching and learning part of the FI Course and 3 hours flying if you are a CRI; about 4 days out of 4 weeks! You can complete the FI course part time to spread the load a bit.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I have a purpose for a CRI - conversions onto the three syndicate aeroplanes I'm in, and training people up on their homebuilts after I've test flown it for them.

I have a purpose for an FI(R), training non-pilots in flight testing for universities.

Both I'll manage to do - I have no plans to do "normal" instruction in a "normal" flying school. Nothing against it, it's just not me - at-least for the foreseeable.

Thanks blagger for the straight answer. Was that in the UK? - I confess to looking at a couple of places in Florida, where I should be much better off with the weather.

I have been told there's credit against the FI(R) if you have the CRI, but haven't seen anything written saying that? Can anybody confirm or deny?

G

[gijoe]

PM sent to you.

['India-Mike]

I have a purpose for an FI(R), training non-pilots in flight testing for universities.

Don't want to broaden the argument but why need any flying training qualification for that activity? An AOC yes, but FI or CRI I wouldn't have thought so.

Regards the 'teaching to teach' element of an instructor course, I learned that being a university lecturer dealing with class sizes of up to 300 ill-mannered, ill-behaved undergraduates with the attention span of a gnat, is completely different from one-to-one teaching of a highly motivated and committed individual. The 'teach-to-teach' element of my FI course was therefore indispensible and with hindsight I'm glad I didn't want any exemption from that element of my training.

I'd say do the FI(R) course - will allow you to take advantage one day of that CPL

[S-Works]

I have a purpose for an FI(R), training non-pilots in flight testing for universities.

An FI(R) wont allow you to do that.

Also remember as a restricted FI you will need a supervising instructor.

What you have described so far fits the profile of a CRI.

As some one who hold an FI and CRI SE/ME and with little involvement in PPL training I can tell you that the CRI is actually the privilege I use 98% of the time. FI is kept current purely to keep Examiner ratings in line.

[Whopity]

An FI(R) won't allow you to do that.

Yes it will!

What you have described so far fits the profile of a CRI.

No it doesn't, they are "non pilots" so it must be an FI or an FI(R) under supervision.

[S-Works]

Whopity, please show me where I can find the 'flight test pilots rating' that genghis is referring to and the rating that is required to teach it.

As far as I can see it is a rating that does not exist and therefore does not even need an instructor rating....

[Genghis the Engineer]

Originally Posted by bose-x

Whopity, please show me where I can find the 'flight test pilots rating' that genghis is referring to and the rating that is required to teach it.

As far as I can see it is a rating that does not exist and therefore does not even need an instructor rating....

Thereby sits much of the problem. There is at present no TP rating under EASA (they are threatening one, but it's being actively opposed by many of the test flying community - and even if they lose, is years away). Generally test flying approvals are for particular organisations and jobs.

I can't, looking at EU-Ops, see any reason why as a CPL holder I can't fly with engineering students under an AOC to demonstrate flight test techniques, have them take measurements, and even handle the controls(?) There does seem a perception however that only an FI can have paying "passengers" handle the controls - I suspect that this is cobblers, but you know how these myths perpetuate. I've no concerns about my ability to persuade anybody that I'm competent to demonstrate flight test techniques.

G

[S-Works]

There is nothing preventing you do as you suggest now. A CRI would add some teaching and supervising knowledge to the mix.

Just ignore the FI who seem to think anything but being an FI does not fit the bill. The CRI is a great rating and actually suits a good chunk of the non PPL ab initio training that goes on. As I mentioned earlier it is also a damn sight easier to gain and maintain.

You have little to lose and a lot to gain by exploring that route first.

[blagger]

Genghis - it was in the UK at Wellesbourne, easy access to open airspace was a bonus as well in order to max the training value. From some of what I've heard I wouldn't touch a US course personally; the training you get from your FIC needs to be the best available I would suggest - I would go for reputation and standards over cost and location every time, as hard as it may seem at choices time.

Bose - did you have to do the full 100hrs ab-initio instruction / 25 PPL course solo sign-offs as a CRI holder / experienced instructor when you got the FI added?

Does anyone know where there is a reference for 3 hours off an FIC for a CRI holder? I had to do the full FI course and I have advised other people that is the situation.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Originally Posted by 'India-Mike

Regards the 'teaching to teach' element of an instructor course, I learned that being a university lecturer dealing with class sizes of up to 300 ill-mannered, ill-behaved undergraduates with the attention span of a gnat, is completely different from one-to-one teaching of a highly motivated and committed individual. The 'teach-to-teach' element of my FI course was therefore indispensible and with hindsight I'm glad I didn't want any exemption from that element of my training.

I'm also a qualified Jiu Jitsu instructor - hopefully teaching flying sits somewhere in between? Although, unlike Jiu Jitsu, I'd miss not being actively encouraged to try and cause pain and unjury in my students.

(Seriously, I actually find martial arts and flying are remarkably similar disciplines - a combined requirement for physical and mental dexterity, lots of arcane theory and odd names for things, and if you don't concentrate 100% on it at the time, you get hurt.)

G

[S-Works]

Bose - did you have to do the full 100hrs ab-initio instruction / 25 PPL course solo sign-offs as a CRI holder / experienced instructor when you got the FI added?

No. I was given credit for already holding the CRI. I was also converting an ICAO Flight Instructor rating at the same time though of which I was also given virtually full credit for.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Originally Posted by bose-x

There is nothing preventing you do as you suggest now. A CRI would add some teaching and supervising knowledge to the mix.

Just ignore the FI who seem to think anything but being an FI does not fit the bill. The CRI is a great rating and actually suits a good chunk of the non PPL ab initio training that goes on. As I mentioned earlier it is also a damn sight easier to gain and maintain.

You have little to lose and a lot to gain by exploring that route first.

You are confirming my prejudices Bose, and I'm going to pursue that - test flying instruction using the CPL (+ 20 years test flying experience!), and try and quietly add a CRI in slow time. Since I can't see my doing this for about a year, getting the CRI before then is straightforward enough.

G

[FlyingForFun]

Genghis,

Just want to add my voice to the list of people who thinks you don't actually need any instructor qualification to do what you're talking about doing.

A CRI can onl instruct people with a license, so would be no use to you. But an instructor qualification is only required if training towards the grant of a license or rating.

In general, there is nothing to stop you from allowing anyone else to handle the controls.... although if you're operating under an AOC, I don't know if that would still hold true. Surely the best thing would be to see if you can incorporate into your AOC some formal procedures for allowing your passengers to handle the controls? Then it would be very clear that it was allowed.

As for the comparison with martial arts, I've certainly wanted to inflict pain on one or two students.... but I've resisted the temptation so far!!!

FFF
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[Genghis the Engineer]

It's obviously getting late, as I'm now wondering if there's scope to offer self defence (or pain infliction?) courses for flying instructors - thus bringing my two obsessions under one umbrella?

G