Fellow Instructors, on Trial Lessons, do you...?
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Fellow Instructors, on Trial Lessons, do you...?
A. Use a checklist?
I don't but I understand the argument about setting a good example from the outset.
B. Give a full safety briefing?
I do but others think it's not necessary.
C. Allow the student to use the radio?
I do, just simple calls, all as prompted.
Just a few questions meantime because I'd be interested to know what others are doing or not doing, I'll think of more later. I've been instructing for several years now at several schools and must have done hundreds of TLs. Any variations to my standard format are probably dictated by the way the school organises the programme and what the management wants.
I don't but I understand the argument about setting a good example from the outset.
B. Give a full safety briefing?
I do but others think it's not necessary.
C. Allow the student to use the radio?
I do, just simple calls, all as prompted.
Just a few questions meantime because I'd be interested to know what others are doing or not doing, I'll think of more later. I've been instructing for several years now at several schools and must have done hundreds of TLs. Any variations to my standard format are probably dictated by the way the school organises the programme and what the management wants.
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Yes (Well - I have it in my hand)
Yes (Always - doesn't matter who I fly with - they're fully briefed!)
Yes - If appropriate. 'G-PM Final' - Brings another smile.
Yes (Always - doesn't matter who I fly with - they're fully briefed!)
Yes - If appropriate. 'G-PM Final' - Brings another smile.
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Yes
If they end up becoming your student, they will follow your lead from day one. Your day one is the first Lesson; theirs is the Trial Flight.
Yes
As above, set the standard (and what if something does go wrong during the Trial Flight?)
No
Here in Canada, you have to have a radio licence to use the radio, and while minor, its just another thing the man can get you on!
(Its not paranoia if they actually are watching you!)
If they end up becoming your student, they will follow your lead from day one. Your day one is the first Lesson; theirs is the Trial Flight.
Yes
As above, set the standard (and what if something does go wrong during the Trial Flight?)
No
Here in Canada, you have to have a radio licence to use the radio, and while minor, its just another thing the man can get you on!
(Its not paranoia if they actually are watching you!)
Yes, It makes them feel like they are really part of the flight.
Yes, Its giving them more input and chances to ask questions.
No, they are too mind f...ed from the flight as I get them flying on all 3 controls by the end. (Helicopter)
Yes, Its giving them more input and chances to ask questions.
No, they are too mind f...ed from the flight as I get them flying on all 3 controls by the end. (Helicopter)
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Yes
Because checklists are (for most normal ops) never optional. Not even for instructors...
Yes
As they are probably unfamiliar, the safety briefing is ever more important.
Maybe
If they want to do a few simple calls.
It's been a while since I've been instructing now, but the checklist question baffeled me. It's not for them, it's for me!
Because checklists are (for most normal ops) never optional. Not even for instructors...
Yes
As they are probably unfamiliar, the safety briefing is ever more important.
Maybe
If they want to do a few simple calls.
It's been a while since I've been instructing now, but the checklist question baffeled me. It's not for them, it's for me!
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No
Yes its a legal requirement.
Depends on the punter Usually its just "cleared takeoff"
And I also let them do the TO and have a shot of trying to land it as well if they want. If they don't want to they don't have to.
Yes its a legal requirement.
Depends on the punter Usually its just "cleared takeoff"
And I also let them do the TO and have a shot of trying to land it as well if they want. If they don't want to they don't have to.
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1. Yes, I use checklists for every flight. That's what they are for.
2. Yes, pretty much.
3. No, but I might from now on!.. sounds like a great way to engage them.
2. Yes, pretty much.
3. No, but I might from now on!.. sounds like a great way to engage them.
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1)no
2)yes
3)sometimes
too many trial lessons are people who clearly aren't interested in the flying, or the controls, have just been bought a voucher and wants to enjoy the view. The people who have treated themselves, or who are genuinely interested usually get a couple of calls on the radio, I have a card pre-written for the purpose.
2)yes
3)sometimes
too many trial lessons are people who clearly aren't interested in the flying, or the controls, have just been bought a voucher and wants to enjoy the view. The people who have treated themselves, or who are genuinely interested usually get a couple of calls on the radio, I have a card pre-written for the purpose.
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The checklist thing continues to blow my mind. Are you all implying that you don't let the candidate/new guy do it, or don't you do it at all? Do you use one when you're alone? 
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Some instructors sit there and read the checklist out for 5 mins and show them all the bits and knobs.
Others realise that the trial flight isn't there to do effects of controls part 1 and 2 and run through the checks from memory and get things moving to the point that the TF is really looking forward to which is getting airborne. I have seen some TR's loosing the will to live sitting on the apron after 15 mins in a briefing room then 10mins getting shown the walk round then another 5 mins before engine start followed by another 5 mins after engine start. Where as a 5 min brief followed by a fuel and oil check and quick transit walk round and taxing within 5 mins of getting strapped and briefed in keeps the excitment of the of the trial flight going. Then once you sell them on the idea that flying is fun you can start the serious buisness of teaching them properly how to fly.
Thats not to say that if you have already "sold" the ppl course to them and they are turning up for a first lesson you can't do the full wack including them doing the checklist. But your normal xmas present TR, get them airbourne as quickly/safely as possible otherwise you are just spoiling the experence and if they were thinking about flying they will either be way over loaded with info or bored pooless.
And no I don't use a checklist when flying solo in a SEP its done from memory.
Others realise that the trial flight isn't there to do effects of controls part 1 and 2 and run through the checks from memory and get things moving to the point that the TF is really looking forward to which is getting airborne. I have seen some TR's loosing the will to live sitting on the apron after 15 mins in a briefing room then 10mins getting shown the walk round then another 5 mins before engine start followed by another 5 mins after engine start. Where as a 5 min brief followed by a fuel and oil check and quick transit walk round and taxing within 5 mins of getting strapped and briefed in keeps the excitment of the of the trial flight going. Then once you sell them on the idea that flying is fun you can start the serious buisness of teaching them properly how to fly.
Thats not to say that if you have already "sold" the ppl course to them and they are turning up for a first lesson you can't do the full wack including them doing the checklist. But your normal xmas present TR, get them airbourne as quickly/safely as possible otherwise you are just spoiling the experence and if they were thinking about flying they will either be way over loaded with info or bored pooless.
And no I don't use a checklist when flying solo in a SEP its done from memory.
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Trial Lessons
1) Rarely
2) Always
3) Sometimes
1) pretty much agree with MJ's & RTN11's posts, unless your student is a serious candidate to continue for a PPL, then don't waste everyone's time, get them to the interesting bits asap. I don't fly much by myself, but don't use a checklist if I'm very familiar with the aeroplane. In the UK I don't believe it's mandatory to read the required actions off bits of laminated cardboard.
2) This on the other hand is a legally mandated action (sorry, but can't be bothered to quote the ANO, it's there if you want to look)
3) As #1
2) Always
3) Sometimes
1) pretty much agree with MJ's & RTN11's posts, unless your student is a serious candidate to continue for a PPL, then don't waste everyone's time, get them to the interesting bits asap. I don't fly much by myself, but don't use a checklist if I'm very familiar with the aeroplane. In the UK I don't believe it's mandatory to read the required actions off bits of laminated cardboard.
2) This on the other hand is a legally mandated action (sorry, but can't be bothered to quote the ANO, it's there if you want to look)
3) As #1
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I'm a student rather than an instructor, but figured I can answer the question just as well seeing as I started out by doing a trial flight!
1) My instructor showed me the checklist and explained he was going to run through it, but didn't read every item out to me and show me exactly what he was doing on each one. Actually, given that I was paying for the trial flight myself, and was using it to check out the school rather than see whether I wanted to proceed onto my PPL, I'd have been happy for him to talk me through it in more detail.
2) Yes he did a safety briefing - explained about the fire extinguisher, how to get canopy open, etc. etc..
3) No, I wasn't given the option to do any radio calls. I didn't do them for my first few lessons, either - and I actually quite liked being able to just concentrate on the flying to start with. Just listening to the radio was enough of a novelty for the trial lesson. Although, I imagine I would have enjoyed just being given a couple of things to read out!
1) My instructor showed me the checklist and explained he was going to run through it, but didn't read every item out to me and show me exactly what he was doing on each one. Actually, given that I was paying for the trial flight myself, and was using it to check out the school rather than see whether I wanted to proceed onto my PPL, I'd have been happy for him to talk me through it in more detail.
2) Yes he did a safety briefing - explained about the fire extinguisher, how to get canopy open, etc. etc..
3) No, I wasn't given the option to do any radio calls. I didn't do them for my first few lessons, either - and I actually quite liked being able to just concentrate on the flying to start with. Just listening to the radio was enough of a novelty for the trial lesson. Although, I imagine I would have enjoyed just being given a couple of things to read out!
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Attracting people.
And giving too much.
No I don't show the checklist nor do I talk about what I'm doing in too much detail. People are there for fun, overloading them with a checklist is simply a bit too much just for the first go.
Yes tell them how to get out and in, who has control and when there is a handover etc.
Yes as they should try as early as possible. Anything one thinks they can cope with.
1/60
No I don't show the checklist nor do I talk about what I'm doing in too much detail. People are there for fun, overloading them with a checklist is simply a bit too much just for the first go.
Yes tell them how to get out and in, who has control and when there is a handover etc.
Yes as they should try as early as possible. Anything one thinks they can cope with.
1/60
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Juno78 if that had been me instructing you and I knew you were starting the course.
A) the lesson would have been charged at normal dual rates (unless the wegie moaned at that)
B) you would have got the full walk round taught.
C) You would have done the checklist not me
D) You would have been introduced to the ground emergency actions.
E) You would have only been up for 20-30 mins on the trial flight during that flight the local land marks would have been pointed out and position of the training area in relation to the airport. You would have no say in where we went.
F) I would have started nagging you to do airlaw and get a medical.
G) I would have flogged you Book 1, Airlaw, checklist and log book.
That lot would have taken 1:30 lesson slot at least if not 2 hours and you would have been utterly knackard afterwards.
So if anyone else is wanting to do what Juno78 did and check the school out for gawds sake tell the instructor !! we ain't mind readers we will normally presume its a fun TF and treat it accordingly. But if you want a proper ex3 air experence lesson tell us and we can do that as well.
A) the lesson would have been charged at normal dual rates (unless the wegie moaned at that)
B) you would have got the full walk round taught.
C) You would have done the checklist not me
D) You would have been introduced to the ground emergency actions.
E) You would have only been up for 20-30 mins on the trial flight during that flight the local land marks would have been pointed out and position of the training area in relation to the airport. You would have no say in where we went.
F) I would have started nagging you to do airlaw and get a medical.
G) I would have flogged you Book 1, Airlaw, checklist and log book.
That lot would have taken 1:30 lesson slot at least if not 2 hours and you would have been utterly knackard afterwards.
So if anyone else is wanting to do what Juno78 did and check the school out for gawds sake tell the instructor !! we ain't mind readers we will normally presume its a fun TF and treat it accordingly. But if you want a proper ex3 air experence lesson tell us and we can do that as well.
A trial lesson is no different to any other lesson however; it is probably the first lesson, and may well be the last lesson, unless you do something to encourage the participant to come back for another go.
All aircraft should be operated in accordance with a Check List however; the choice of memorising it, or reading it, is one of personal preference. Personally, on a trial flight I will deliberately read it to inspire the concept of formality.
If this was a Private Flight, a safety brief is mandatory in accorcdance with Article 88. In a aerial work flight involving a flying lesson, the student is not legally a passenger however; before commencing Exercise 3 Air Experience, you should also have covered Exercises 1 and 2 which include the relevant safety information. You have a duty of care to ensure they know how to get out of the aircraft in an emergency.
What possible reason could there be to let the student use the radio on such an early flight unless they had a specific reason for wanting to do so.
All aircraft should be operated in accordance with a Check List however; the choice of memorising it, or reading it, is one of personal preference. Personally, on a trial flight I will deliberately read it to inspire the concept of formality.
If this was a Private Flight, a safety brief is mandatory in accorcdance with Article 88. In a aerial work flight involving a flying lesson, the student is not legally a passenger however; before commencing Exercise 3 Air Experience, you should also have covered Exercises 1 and 2 which include the relevant safety information. You have a duty of care to ensure they know how to get out of the aircraft in an emergency.
What possible reason could there be to let the student use the radio on such an early flight unless they had a specific reason for wanting to do so.
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Whopity,
Allowing TL students to make some radio calls is just one way of involving them as much as possible, making it fun and removing some of the mystique.
LH-OAB
Allowing TL students to make some radio calls is just one way of involving them as much as possible, making it fun and removing some of the mystique.
LH-OAB
1. Checklists - I'm doing it but I don't waste engine run time asking the student to go through it. I go through it at pace adding explanation as and when it crops up, e.g. stude asking questions or situation lending itself to some meat on the bones. Whole point is to get them in the air.
2. Safety - I always give a safety brief.
3. Radio - never even occurred to me before, good idea, bit student dependent thou'
2. Safety - I always give a safety brief.
3. Radio - never even occurred to me before, good idea, bit student dependent thou'
I'm not an instructor, I do have 20 years flying experience, much of it flying with some of the most experienced pilots in the world. I do (A) and (B) on every flight; occasionally I may use memory, but I'll do them nonetheless: out loud if there's somebody else in the aeroplane.
If I fly with somebody hoping to join an aircraft syndicate who don't do these things, then I'm likely to refer them for some remedial instruction before they come back.
If I flew with an instructor who didn't do these things, then I'd not fly with that school again - they clearly have low standards that I don't want to go near.
Obviously however, most trial flight students don't have the ability to make this judgment. But all instructors have the ability to fly properly and procedurally.
G
If I fly with somebody hoping to join an aircraft syndicate who don't do these things, then I'm likely to refer them for some remedial instruction before they come back.
If I flew with an instructor who didn't do these things, then I'd not fly with that school again - they clearly have low standards that I don't want to go near.
Obviously however, most trial flight students don't have the ability to make this judgment. But all instructors have the ability to fly properly and procedurally.
G
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If I flew with an instructor who didn't do these things, then I'd not fly with that school again - they clearly have low standards that I don't want to go near.
Therefore:
1. Yes, Always. Not just for the sake of safety, standards and the other reasons for always using an appropriate checklist but missing something out is at best rather embarasing.
However, I am talking checklist here and not a long "how to do list"
The more professional places will have an "Expanded Checklist" or a "How to Do List" and a separate "Checklist". You do the steps in the "How to" list and when done run the "very brief) checklist. Everyone memorises the "How To" / Expanded List but always runs the brief checklist.
Therefore if this is exercise 3 in the correct sense (1 and 2 covered previously) then the student should be able to use the "DO" list to start the engine and then when all is done run the checklist. Later they should be able to do this without the prompt - but they will after always runthe checklist.
If this is a "trial" lesson then I do the procedure and run the appropriate checklist.
2. Yes it is a legal requirement. I don't know why anyone mentioned that the student may not be classified as a passenger? Isn't every occupant of the aircraft entitled to have their safety ensured by the PIC?
3. No. Never. We bleat constantly about non-standard R/T so I don't let students use the radio until they know the appropriate phraseology. This is not required for exercise 3. Exercise 4 should have them knowing a few calls and if they can do them in the exercise / pre-flight brief then I let them try in the aircraft.
Exercise 3 is more often a sales exercise. It should be done by the more experienced instructors in the organisation and everything is about image, branding and selling the product - flight training. It is not exercise 4 or any other formal exercise.
If (as can be the case) exercise 3 is being conducted in sequence then after Exercise 1 and 2 it is a good time for some fun while putting some practical examples of what was covered in 1 and 2 in front of the student i.e. pre-flight paperwork, walk-round, checklist use etc. However, as has been said this flight should be short (for many reasons).
In the end the student will replicate the instructor. Get them replicating the correct standard of operation from the start.
Last edited by DFC; 10th Oct 2010 at 21:38.