What would you do??
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Maybe this is why there are occasionally remarks about quality of instructors these days - nobody cares what the standards are!
jez - at least you seem to want to do something, though it is probably not quite the way I personally would go about things
(And bose-x, if you hear me teaching something incorrectly please feel free to take me to one side and have a word - I think you will find that I am actually quite receptive - we might end up with a debate if I disagree, but I am always open to being shown to be wrong!)
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You're not quite getting it. Of course people care about the standard of FI's. Some of us have run schools and had to work like crazy to ensure that what is taught is always good.
My point is that you've taken it upon yourself to be judge, juror and executioner over one misused phrase. You aren't an helicopter pilot or FI and so are unlikely to have any idea about whether this chap is good, bad or indifferent.
Everyone makes mistakes, even pilots... I guarantee that if I sat in on your briefings and flights for a day, I'd could pull you up on all manner of things. That doesn't necessarily make you a rubbish FI or me a brilliant one. You could probably do the same with any other FI yourself.
So, you've had a word, explained to the bloke his mistake and that should be the end of it. To try and make out that other people aren't interested in "standards" or that the industry is full of incompetent idiots based on this one overheard briefing is nonsense. He might be an idiot, but there's more to being a good FI than just terminology.
My point is that you've taken it upon yourself to be judge, juror and executioner over one misused phrase. You aren't an helicopter pilot or FI and so are unlikely to have any idea about whether this chap is good, bad or indifferent.
Everyone makes mistakes, even pilots... I guarantee that if I sat in on your briefings and flights for a day, I'd could pull you up on all manner of things. That doesn't necessarily make you a rubbish FI or me a brilliant one. You could probably do the same with any other FI yourself.
So, you've had a word, explained to the bloke his mistake and that should be the end of it. To try and make out that other people aren't interested in "standards" or that the industry is full of incompetent idiots based on this one overheard briefing is nonsense. He might be an idiot, but there's more to being a good FI than just terminology.
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Sorry SAS, to me it is you that is not getting it - I was not so much upset over one misused phrase as the fact that he, and apparently half the instructors here do not think it matters if we teach correctly or not. Also, I did not at any point AFAIK accuse this guy of being a bad instructor (anyway, since when does a helo pilot/instructor navigate differently to a fixed wing one - also FYI I was actually a rotary pilot in a past life!), merely asked what others would have done and then point out his reaction when I made it known that I had spoken to him discretly. Anyway, as most people seem to think this irrelevant and either are missing my point or think I am most in the wrong here for bringing this up I will not be returning to this post.
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Threads on Pprune don't always go the way you think they will!
There are some differences in Heli navigation, not in how we do it, but there are obvious changes in things like looking for off airfield landing sites. I don't know many fixed wing pilots who use OS maps for example! (I too am a heli pilot.)
You did the right thing in talking to him, but it's your subsequent points that I have the issue with. I (and I know Bose is too) am very concerned with the standard of teaching that goes on and I do agree that this bloke could be a problem, but I just don't think it's good enough to have a go at someone or draw conclusions about our industry in general from one bit of phraseology.
Yes, it's not a usual thing to say, but it isn't technically incorrect either. A knot is of course 1 nautical mile per hour, but it's hardly crime of the century to mix up the terms.
It's also unsurprising that you got a slightly odd reaction from him. Some random bloke wanders up and tells you that you're doing something that is very minor albeit wrong, is bound to put you on the back foot.
I've had people try and do that to me (they were actually wrong, not I) and they got sent away with a flea in their ear for 1) Being wrong themselves. 2) Being a pain in the ar*e.
There are some differences in Heli navigation, not in how we do it, but there are obvious changes in things like looking for off airfield landing sites. I don't know many fixed wing pilots who use OS maps for example! (I too am a heli pilot.)
You did the right thing in talking to him, but it's your subsequent points that I have the issue with. I (and I know Bose is too) am very concerned with the standard of teaching that goes on and I do agree that this bloke could be a problem, but I just don't think it's good enough to have a go at someone or draw conclusions about our industry in general from one bit of phraseology.
Yes, it's not a usual thing to say, but it isn't technically incorrect either. A knot is of course 1 nautical mile per hour, but it's hardly crime of the century to mix up the terms.
It's also unsurprising that you got a slightly odd reaction from him. Some random bloke wanders up and tells you that you're doing something that is very minor albeit wrong, is bound to put you on the back foot.
I've had people try and do that to me (they were actually wrong, not I) and they got sent away with a flea in their ear for 1) Being wrong themselves. 2) Being a pain in the ar*e.
Well, I'm pleased that after two pages this has been sorted.
In future I'll just go ahead and use miles when I actually mean miles per hour, metres when I really mean metres per second. Feet in runway distance to go terms when I meant metres. Should I need to go-around on a missed approach I shall declare 'overshooting' and disregard what ATC think of that. I shall refer to oktas when the metar is talking about sky partially obscured and we'll see just how long it takes the rest of the crew the take me to task for talking b. Since some of these are non safety related I expect I'll see another two pages of debate as to whether they're relevant to the topic.
But you guys are at the cutting edge of teaching the future to fly-so that's all right then. And all because some poor unfortunate thought to ask how best to tackle a tricky problem of correcting poor (yes poor) instructing technique.
Sod knots per hour, why not call them apples-it makes about as much sense.
s
In future I'll just go ahead and use miles when I actually mean miles per hour, metres when I really mean metres per second. Feet in runway distance to go terms when I meant metres. Should I need to go-around on a missed approach I shall declare 'overshooting' and disregard what ATC think of that. I shall refer to oktas when the metar is talking about sky partially obscured and we'll see just how long it takes the rest of the crew the take me to task for talking b
. Since some of these are non safety related I expect I'll see another two pages of debate as to whether they're relevant to the topic.But you guys are at the cutting edge of teaching the future to fly-so that's all right then. And all because some poor unfortunate thought to ask how best to tackle a tricky problem of correcting poor (yes poor) instructing technique.
Sod knots per hour, why not call them apples-it makes about as much sense.
s
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You know I just told my dog to '****down'. As the words came out of my mouth I thought she would take a dump on the carpet, fortunately she realised it was a slip of the tongue and sat down in stead and stuck her paw out for a treat and thats just a Yorkie pup........
A slip of the tongue hardly makes a bad Instructor, personally if I had done the same and Foxmouth had come and foisted his opinion on me, I would probably have given him a flea in his ear as well.
We are all human and sometimes we make mistakes. It is not our job to be all self righteous and act as the training police when we here a slip up. We are all professionals and a little bit of camaraderie should not go amiss.......
And I will say again for the last time..... He who is without sin cast the first stone.
A slip of the tongue hardly makes a bad Instructor, personally if I had done the same and Foxmouth had come and foisted his opinion on me, I would probably have given him a flea in his ear as well.
We are all human and sometimes we make mistakes. It is not our job to be all self righteous and act as the training police when we here a slip up. We are all professionals and a little bit of camaraderie should not go amiss.......
And I will say again for the last time..... He who is without sin cast the first stone.
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As this slip of the tounge was during a ground briefing, I would think it was a simple matter of a bloke not multi-tasking well. Quite probably he was trying to write one thing on the board while saying something else, and had a brain fart.
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Are you really sure you meant X?
I would ask him about it phrased as a question.
Bloggs please forgive my professional curiosity and lack of knowledge but I was thinking of taking up some of this rotary black magic stuff that you do.
I am about to purchase the Wagenthingy book but wondered if there were any other substantial differences say in say aerodynamics or navigation apart from the obvious......I couldn't help but over hear that you said X to a student the other day is the phraesology different in rototary parlance or did I misunderstand what you were saying as in fixed wing it is alwasy said in way Y...
Would you recommend that book and would you like a coffee/beer/smoke.......
job done
Bloggs please forgive my professional curiosity and lack of knowledge but I was thinking of taking up some of this rotary black magic stuff that you do.
I am about to purchase the Wagenthingy book but wondered if there were any other substantial differences say in say aerodynamics or navigation apart from the obvious......I couldn't help but over hear that you said X to a student the other day is the phraesology different in rototary parlance or did I misunderstand what you were saying as in fixed wing it is alwasy said in way Y...
Would you recommend that book and would you like a coffee/beer/smoke.......
job done
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Alternatively you could use the scottish advanced CRM method.
"oi ya fud, whit ****e were ya telling that poor bastard, knots per hour ya knob, WTF, you need a word with yourself."
If you get any lip back just kick him in the chugs (as patented by SAS)
Don't worry most of these rotary instructors are skinny wee runts so you should be able to take him.
"oi ya fud, whit ****e were ya telling that poor bastard, knots per hour ya knob, WTF, you need a word with yourself."
If you get any lip back just kick him in the chugs (as patented by SAS)
Don't worry most of these rotary instructors are skinny wee runts so you should be able to take him.
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Foxmoth
Any chance he did it deliberately, as a test of the student's understanding? And was hoping against hope for "what the hell are you talking about?" in response, from his post-solo nav student?
Just a thought...
Any chance he did it deliberately, as a test of the student's understanding? And was hoping against hope for "what the hell are you talking about?" in response, from his post-solo nav student?
Just a thought...
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Don't be silly JTN, as bose-x and RTN 11 have decreed it was a slip of the tongue, no doubt due to there superior powers of knowledge and/or telepathy, it can't possibly have been as you suggest.
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Don't be silly JTN, as bose-x and RTN 11 have decreed it was a slip of the tongue, no doubt due to there superior powers of knowledge and/or telepathy, it can't possibly have been as you suggest.
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bose-x, don't try and backtrack now you clearly inferred it WAS a slip of the tongue, if indeed it was then it must have been 2 consecutive slips of the tongue, which is possible, but less likely.
Someone posted giving an overview of a situation and asking for an opinion, simple really, until you try to take control in questioning what actually was witnessed by the OP in stating it was a slip of the tongue, despite it looking highly unlikely.
If, as you say, it is merely offering an alternative view then your method of doing so makes it difficult to recognise it as such and looks more like you were having a right dig with a heavy dose of sarcasm thrown in. Hardly a professional, or mature, approach to offering an alternative view to a fellow instructor, yet you attack the OP for being 'petty'
Someone posted giving an overview of a situation and asking for an opinion, simple really, until you try to take control in questioning what actually was witnessed by the OP in stating it was a slip of the tongue, despite it looking highly unlikely.
If, as you say, it is merely offering an alternative view then your method of doing so makes it difficult to recognise it as such and looks more like you were having a right dig with a heavy dose of sarcasm thrown in. Hardly a professional, or mature, approach to offering an alternative view to a fellow instructor, yet you attack the OP for being 'petty'
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I said the exact same think the other day, I was giving a nav brief and asking the student the same type of questions in a few different scenarios. I was caught up in the moment or got distracted, I can't remember and it slipped out, I did however correct myself and all was forgotten.
These things happen, you can be thrown off track by a distraction, such as someone putting there head around the corner of the briefing room or a million other things.
Leave the poor guy alone, there's much worse things to worry about.
These things happen, you can be thrown off track by a distraction, such as someone putting there head around the corner of the briefing room or a million other things.
Leave the poor guy alone, there's much worse things to worry about.
How about from a student's perspective? I would find it rather odd that my instructor didn't apparently know something as simple as his units. Wouldn't inspire confidence...
And where I work, mad jock's method of correction is the most widely used, best understood and successful system!
And where I work, mad jock's method of correction is the most widely used, best understood and successful system!
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Oooh! Babybear, want to make a fight of it with me then? Bring it on!!
There is no backtracking going on. I merely observed that I would have seen this as a slip of the tongue and not a reason to go and stick my nose on another instructor or start an internet forum lynch mob.
I assume you have never made a mistake a slip of the tongue or otherwise, the same as foxmoth which entitles you to join him as judge jury and executioner?
See if you can read a solid dose of sarcasm into that......
There is no backtracking going on. I merely observed that I would have seen this as a slip of the tongue and not a reason to go and stick my nose on another instructor or start an internet forum lynch mob.
I assume you have never made a mistake a slip of the tongue or otherwise, the same as foxmoth which entitles you to join him as judge jury and executioner?
See if you can read a solid dose of sarcasm into that......