Landing Lights?

[fireflybob]

Talking basic flying training in the UK

Just wondered what your FTO teaches with respect to use of landing lights for day operations?

What are the reason(s) for using landing lights by day?

Are there any airfields where the use of landing lights in the circuit by day is mandatory by local diktat?

If your FTO teaches use of landing lights by day what is the turnover rate on landing lights?

What do you think of teaching landing lights off after take off at 300 ft aal and the switching them on again during the pre-landing checks?

Thanks for any comments.

[welliewanger]

There are numerous options, each with good arguments.

1. It's day time, why do you need a light? The cost money don't you know!

2. Landing light on once cleared to land. This makes a good reference for those "did they clear me to land yet?" moments. This may be a bit busy for PPLs.

3. Landing light on in the circuit.

4. Landing light on in the ATZ. Lights always make you easier to see for collision avoidance.

In light aircraft I subscribe to 3/4. In the jet I fly, we go with the wing lights on (pulse / flash) below 10,000 and all landing lights on (steady) once given clearance to land.

[Cows getting bigger]

On or off, but don't start pratting around with them in the cct.

[Vortex Thing]

Red light on, green light....

Agree with wellie re the jet thing.

We do fixed landing lights on below FL100, strobes & nav/position are always on, anti-coll means a/c is powered, is about to be or just has been so stay away until its off.

This was the same fixed and rotary for military (separate rules for ex/ops and strobing black environment but that's another issue)

Wrt to light aircraft I always teach lights off on departure with your after take off checks/ climb checks a/c or SOP dependant and then lts on when cleared to land.

The reasons given below re conspicuity I think all hold water so would understand them being left on at all times if doing circuit details.

Also same would apply to FLWOP/FLWP/PFLs, Low Level Nav, Low Level Ccts, aeros or anything where you feel that more conspicuity is needed.

I have found that some of the smaller schools I taught at thought this a little rigid but many others insisted it was so but the same argument went for pitot heater on/off when/where? (not trying to open up another thread) but it is one of the things that drove me away from small schools as though I understand financial imperative safety is what it is and costs what it costs and is always cheaper than the accident.

IMHO the student at this level should not be given a choice in how they adapt SOPs they just do what the school instructors/standards have agreed and then when they have the choice later in their flying be that professional or as experienced PPLs then they have the ability to make the choice but I do not think that the student early on has the capacity to work out if they require a certain level of conspicuity in a given situation such as is it close to sunset/sunrise, poor vis , etc, etc so basically the more light and the more standard when it comes on/off the better.

SOPs save lives!

[DB6]

All lights on before departure, all stay on until after landing. How many times have you seen a quick flash of light (usually in a turn) before seeing the aircraft it was coming from? If you're at the hold waiting to line up, what do you see first, the lights on the approaching aircraft or the aircraft itself? I rest my case.

[jidder]

Be safe Be seen

J

[mrmum]

Just my personal opinions, but here they are;

Just wondered what your FTO teaches with respect to use of landing lights for day operations?

Switch on at HP/pre-departure checks, switch off with after-landing checks.

What are the reason(s) for using landing lights by day?

Pretty much the same as DB6, if you are approx. in someone's 12 O'clock, you'll see the light easier than just the aircraft.

Are there any airfields where the use of landing lights in the circuit by day is mandatory by local diktat?

Not that I go to, but it's not a bad idea to do so. That doesn't mean I think we need more petty airfield rules.

If your FTO teaches use of landing lights by day what is the turnover rate on landing lights?

They generally need replaced before a 50hr check, that's on PA28s/38s, mounted in lower engine cowling, may last longer on wing mounted types.

What do you think of teaching landing lights off after take off at 300 ft aal and the switching them on again during the pre-landing checks?

I agree with CGB, pointless switch fiddling in the circuit isn't helpful, students have got enough do do already.

[fireflybob]

Thanks for all the replies.

I agree, landing light(s) on before departure and remain on until after landing.

[Gulfstreamaviator]

In the real world

Beacon on when an engine is ON, or being started or running down.

Taxi lights ON when actually moving on the operational areas, or until after take off checks.

Landing lights ON when cleared for take off......off in after take off checks.

Landing lights ON when landing clearance received.

At transition, or 10,000 ft, or as per company procedures does effect the actual timing.

Strobes ON when entering the runway, OFF when exiting the runway.

glf

[fireflybob]

Gulfstreamaviator, thanks but my query related to light general aviation aircraft below circa 5000ft, specifically related to ab initio training.

Shiny jet aircraft have more lights inboard/outboard/runway turn off lights, as I sure you know, where there are similar but different considerations.

[212man]

I operate offshore helicopres, but our SOP (which I write) is landing lights on when ready to taxy, off when finally stopped and about to shutdown. Conspicuity should be paramount in any environment that may rely on visual acquisition and separation. I also think the "it wears the bulbs out " argument is flawed (when it is touted) for two reasons:

1) The fillaments are more durable when hot and elastic, and subjected to fewer stress cycles of heating and cooling, so I believe they last at least as long.

2) So what (if they do fail more quickly - which I doubt) if they may save your life!

[Ryan5252]

2) So what (if they do fail more quickly - which I doubt) if they may save your life!

Indeed!! This is an argument I put to my club only a few weeks back. At the start of the year the club put the price up to solo hire a particular aircraft due to increasing costs (which i'll not bore you with as you're all no doubt familiar with!) This is fine and I am more than happy with the service provided, condition of a/c and other facilities. I do however subscribe to their Terms & Conditions and pay my membership when due. However I have my own few T's & C's: when I fly their aircraft (and pay them for the privilege) I expect to have full use of the aircraft when hired to me including the (limited) bells and whistles.

They asked me recently, after observing a landing, to be 'more considerate' to their operating costs (referring to my use of landing light). My response was that, while I understand they're concerns in minimising their costs, I feel safer to operate in the circuit (and around other airports, VRPs and other prominent landmarks) with both landing light and nav lights in operation. I also made the point I was aware that it was in my own interest to consider their costs as these will undoubtedly be passed on to the hirer and therefore I do try my best to mitigate costs without comprising safety or efficiency (leaning mixture in the cruise for example and how many new PPL's bother when they are paying a wet rate anyway?)

To answer the OP's original question as to the FTO's guidelines, in my case I suppose the use of landing lights is not defined explicitly in writing, but it is my view most would prefer minimal use or night time use only. However at the end of the day, it is my choice as PIC of the aircraft I pay good money to hire, to ensure my flight is conducted safely and I personally believe being lit like a Christmas tree may help someone spot me sooner - especially as I may not have spotted them! On the other hand; it may make no difference whatsoever, in which case it is nothing more than a comfort factor - but the point is, even considering club SOPs/Guidelines etc, remember, ultimately it's your responsibility to ensure you see and be seen and you should feel free to use whatever features of the aircraft you want to help you to do so.

Cheers
Ryan

EDIT: Just to add, I don't fly with Nav/Landing lights on all throughout the flight. It is only in areas where I expect a build up traffic likely to congregate or when conditions are 'marginal VFR' . It should be considered that the landing light even of a light GA aircraft is incredibly strong on the ground (though it admittedly dosn't seem so) and one should always be wary to turn it off when not required outside the runway (i.e. day time ops) as it can easily dazzle other air/ground crews.

[DB6]

'It should be considered that the landing light even of a light GA aircraft is incredibly strong on the ground (though it admittedly dosn't seem so) and one should always be wary to turn it off when not required outside the runway (i.e. day time ops) as it can easily dazzle other air/ground crews.'

No it isn't and no it doesn't. Do you get dazzled when you check the landing light during a walkround? Have you ever been dazzled by a landing light during daylight? Similar twaddle proliferates regarding the use of strobes. On an airliner or military aircraft with high-intensity strobes, or at night with adjusted night vision, maybe. But a light aircraft? No. It doesn't seem so because it isn't.

[Ryan5252]

No. It doesn't seem so because it isn't.

Perhaps its variable, but to answer your question yes I have been dazzeled by landing lights before I don't appreciate it, no excuse for trudging around the apron with one's landing light on in perfect daylight hours.

Ryan

[Dagenhamdave]

I'm Just 11 hours into my fixed wing training at an airfield in Essex,
Landing light on when entering the runway, off at 300 ft , on at base then off when runway vacated. I was told that some studies have proved that having the landing light on during the low levels reduces the chance of birdstike?????? also if you are in the cruise and see another aircraft in your vicinity (opposing track) you could turn it on then off to highlight your position, especially in haze or mist.
then again what do I know

[fireflybob]

I cannot understand the reason for switching the landing light off at 300 ft after take off and then switching it on again in the Pre Landing Checks! Leave the landing light ON for the whole flight! Are you telling me that conspicuity in the circuit between 300 ft and half way along the downwind leg doesn't matter? Also as had been said previously do you want an ab initio student fumbling around with the landing light switch at 300 ft after take off - throw in an engine failure at that point and it could be interesting.

To summarise, landing light ON in the Pre Take Off Checks and OFF in the after landing check! KISS!!!

[asyncio]

I cannot understand the reason for switching the landing light off at 300 ft after take off and then switching it on again in the Pre Landing Checks!

Isn't it because the aim is to actually teach departures and arrivals, and a circuit is just a fast way of doing that?
Same as a touch and go is a quick landing and a quick take off.
(There's already another discussion on here somewhere about how students should be taught full stop landings before touch and goes)

So if you just leave the light on, aren't you risking them forgetting to switch it off/on when really departing/arriving from an airfield.

[Kiltie]

Advocating having every light switched on for conspicuity in every situation can't be generalised to all aircraft in my opinion. Many landing lights flush with the leading edge of the wing, on some twins for example, will crack or discolour the perspex cover if left on for prolonged periods with no cooling airflow over them. The same is true of some Boeings.

Strobes on any aircraft outwith an active runway is distracting, particularly at night. I was un-nerved on an approach some time ago by an aircraft sitting at the holding point with strobes and white lights on.......the glare worried me that he was about to enter the active; in the end he didn't but it didn't calm my nerves until we had passed him and were on to the touchdown zone.

Strobes on an active runway are an absolute Godsend, day and night. Regarding white lights on below FL100 on commercial aircraft, this conspicuity rule I think was generated by a CAA FODCOM or AIC or something similar so is not operator-specific.

Why has nobody come up with the "go by the manufacturer's POH" yet?

[fireflybob]

So if you just leave the light on, aren't you risking them forgetting to switch it off/on when really departing/arriving from an airfield.

No because you leave the landing light ON for the whole flight!

Kiltie, my original query which started this thread was concerning basic flying training in light single engine piston a/c. Yes, I agree on more complex aircraft there isn't a case for having every single light switched on for the whole flight. For example, the SOP for the Boeing which I fly for a living is retractable lights off with gear up and the rest of the landing lights off passing FL 100 on the climbout and vice versa on the descent.

So to return to my original query with respect to student pilots learning to fly the reason for having a (the) landing light at all times whilst airborne is primarily for conspicuity. If you accept this then why switch the landing light off at 300 ft and then switch it on again during the Pre Landing Checks? Are we less bothered about having an airprox between 300 ft after take off and half way along the downwind leg? Much easier to switch the light on in the Pre Take Off Checks and just leave it on until the After Landing Check.

This is still, as far as I aware, what the UK military teach - perhaps someone (DB6 ?) could confirm this?

[FIR3er]

Landing Light

Landing lifhts are good for see and avoid principal.

In non-controlled aerodromes they assist you in the circuit and also are a good practice for if you are going to train on larger aircraft where you need the use of landing lights.

The small cost of a landing lights is a small price for safety.