How Should I Know That my Student is Ready for His First Solo???
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Mind you SAS I am a meer beginner at sending folk solo using my gut feel. I reckon its just over 20 now with no accidents/incidents. You must have more.
I presume DFC in his usual condersending manner has stated the bloody obvious again about completeing all the exercises, covering emergencys, having a medical and all that other good stuff. Which most folk as professional instructors would have taken as read.
This thread has made me think what do I look for? I had a break from Instructing for 5 years. Yes the patter was a bit rusty. But strangely the yes/no about sending someone solo hadn't changed at all. Its almost like a switch flicks on that first circuit of the sortie. Yes this feels right, look out the window at the wing tip and leave them to it. Second circuit give them a fanstop see if that knocks them out the groove. Then 3rd circuit take the RT on finals ask for a fullstop exit to the intersection. Student 9 times out of 10 still doesn't realise whats happening. Give them a brief, tell the tower whats happening and start the walk back to the office with a big grin on my face that there is another pilot in this world. And I never watch them doing the circuit because I know they will be fine.
I presume DFC in his usual condersending manner has stated the bloody obvious again about completeing all the exercises, covering emergencys, having a medical and all that other good stuff. Which most folk as professional instructors would have taken as read.
This thread has made me think what do I look for? I had a break from Instructing for 5 years. Yes the patter was a bit rusty. But strangely the yes/no about sending someone solo hadn't changed at all. Its almost like a switch flicks on that first circuit of the sortie. Yes this feels right, look out the window at the wing tip and leave them to it. Second circuit give them a fanstop see if that knocks them out the groove. Then 3rd circuit take the RT on finals ask for a fullstop exit to the intersection. Student 9 times out of 10 still doesn't realise whats happening. Give them a brief, tell the tower whats happening and start the walk back to the office with a big grin on my face that there is another pilot in this world. And I never watch them doing the circuit because I know they will be fine.
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I would like to say a big thanks to everyone that honors me by pitching in my endeavor to make a part of aviation training more safe and efficient ......
I feel that we have to "catch" all those critical incidents that take place out there and are alike worldwide .....
knowing all the "small" things helps you apprehend the big picture...
I feel that we have to "catch" all those critical incidents that take place out there and are alike worldwide .....
knowing all the "small" things helps you apprehend the big picture...
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A lot has been stated
Exercise 4 through 13.
Student should be able to cope with a fair amount of problems which includes: G/A, Fan stop, Mayday call, Be aware of wake vortex.
Good R/T
Generally good flying, aircraft in balance during climbing turns etc.
Speed personally I don't mind if they go 5KT under or 5KT over on the approach speed.
The main focus in my own opinion is to see them do everything on their own and make good calls and R/T.
Height plus or minus 150 feet weather depending, speed not less than minus 5 KT and not more than 10KT. Landings well controlled, this includes being able to sort things out if he/she ballons slightly.
If you have to do something for them, it best not be something too critical.
If I am not entirely satisfied then I let the most senior FI go with them and call it a progress check.
A vital lesson I heard from an examiners point of view: If you never let them ballon, how will they know that they have?
This goes back to a case were a student flew into a grass strip, ballooned- bounced *not corrective action* , bounced again, crashed and thereafter parts of the aircraft took 3 months to mend.
The student had never been shown what a balloon is and never managed to perform one haphazardly until he/she was alone.
Student should be able to cope with a fair amount of problems which includes: G/A, Fan stop, Mayday call, Be aware of wake vortex.
Good R/T
Generally good flying, aircraft in balance during climbing turns etc.
Speed personally I don't mind if they go 5KT under or 5KT over on the approach speed.
The main focus in my own opinion is to see them do everything on their own and make good calls and R/T.
Height plus or minus 150 feet weather depending, speed not less than minus 5 KT and not more than 10KT. Landings well controlled, this includes being able to sort things out if he/she ballons slightly.
If you have to do something for them, it best not be something too critical.
If I am not entirely satisfied then I let the most senior FI go with them and call it a progress check.
A vital lesson I heard from an examiners point of view: If you never let them ballon, how will they know that they have?
This goes back to a case were a student flew into a grass strip, ballooned- bounced *not corrective action* , bounced again, crashed and thereafter parts of the aircraft took 3 months to mend.
The student had never been shown what a balloon is and never managed to perform one haphazardly until he/she was alone.
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I can't really remember how many people I've sent solo personally, all I know is that they all survived the experience and no aircraft were ever broken, but I suppose because I don't feel the need to state the bleedin' obvious, I'm of course an appalling instructor and the reason this industry is in a parlous state... 
None of the FI's I've worked with both as a CFI or back when I was an FI(r) have ever killed people by sending them off too early either. Funny that.
I can only think of that one horrible accident in Southend where a student on their first solo died, that really is a nightmare, but it shows how it can happen and that you can never become flippant about this part of the course.
There is more to teaching people to fly than just ticking boxes. If FI's don't use their "gut feeling" and experience to help drive their actions, then they are the most useless FI's ever to have sat in the cockpit of an aircraft.
Process is all very well, but it has to be combined with a bit of nous too.
None of the FI's I've worked with both as a CFI or back when I was an FI(r) have ever killed people by sending them off too early either. Funny that.
I can only think of that one horrible accident in Southend where a student on their first solo died, that really is a nightmare, but it shows how it can happen and that you can never become flippant about this part of the course.
There is more to teaching people to fly than just ticking boxes. If FI's don't use their "gut feeling" and experience to help drive their actions, then they are the most useless FI's ever to have sat in the cockpit of an aircraft.
Process is all very well, but it has to be combined with a bit of nous too.
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And I never watch them doing the circuit because I know they will be fine.
Is it that you don't onserve the first solo or that you don't observe any solo flying?
Just because the first solo is quite a big milestone and a good reason for celebration after does not remove the fact that it is a training exercise and should be properly de-briefed (or at least the instructor should observe so that anything that arises can be debriefed) after.
Is this a good example of the instructor getting carried away with the fact that this is a significant event and therefore not doing something that they would normally do?
Perhaps one needs to look at how the first solo affects the instructor as much as it affects the student i.e. how is the instructor affected by students that struggle to solo etc. ?
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You debrief a first solo? Why?
I take my students down to the pub and let them enjoy themselves.
Debriefing a first solo usually goes like this:
S: "WoooHooooo!"
FI: "Did you enjoy that?"
S: "Gibber, gibber, random nonsense, thatwasfrigginawesome!"
FI: "Nicely done, let's go and celebrate."
An indepth formal debrief after the first solo is possibly the biggest waste of time I've ever heard of. The student doesn't care, you aren't going to be able to add much other than points about the R/T or landing and formalising the whole thing is so ridiculous as to be untrue.
Are you really that humourless DFC? Your last post simply says to me that you have no idea about instructing whatsoever, other than what you have read in a book.
You will hear all about the flight whilst chatting later and you can make suggestions and comments then, not by sticking people in a room and asking them to criticise their performance whilst they are on a massive high.
A formal debrief immediately after an acceptable first solo... Pointless, boring and completely missing the ethos of making flying as enjoyable an expereince as possible for your customer.
Lighten up for crying out loud.
I take my students down to the pub and let them enjoy themselves.
Debriefing a first solo usually goes like this:
S: "WoooHooooo!"
FI: "Did you enjoy that?"
S: "Gibber, gibber, random nonsense, thatwasfrigginawesome!"
FI: "Nicely done, let's go and celebrate."
An indepth formal debrief after the first solo is possibly the biggest waste of time I've ever heard of. The student doesn't care, you aren't going to be able to add much other than points about the R/T or landing and formalising the whole thing is so ridiculous as to be untrue.
Are you really that humourless DFC? Your last post simply says to me that you have no idea about instructing whatsoever, other than what you have read in a book.
You will hear all about the flight whilst chatting later and you can make suggestions and comments then, not by sticking people in a room and asking them to criticise their performance whilst they are on a massive high.
A formal debrief immediately after an acceptable first solo... Pointless, boring and completely missing the ethos of making flying as enjoyable an expereince as possible for your customer.
Lighten up for crying out loud.
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I really second the part on ballooning. When I get the "feeling" that a student is getting close to his first solo, I tell him that I will make a control input on short final, just to make sure he's making the correct inputs in case of a sudden gust or whatnot. I also usually ask the student on climbout/crosswind where the preceding aircraft in the circuit is. Sometimes, if traffic is dense, I also tell him to fly back and forth to the holding outside of the traffic pattern. It is good to see the student being able to make an approach from another direction than normal.
And if the third landing is up to standard, I tell him to taxi in to let me off. The important part is not to make a big deal out of with but rather see it as a natural part of the syllabus.
This might seem a little complicated at first, but the reality at big FTO's is that you might be sending someone off that you have spent very little time flying with. Reading through previous instructor comments is of course important, but I rather see some of the vital things myself.
And if the third landing is up to standard, I tell him to taxi in to let me off. The important part is not to make a big deal out of with but rather see it as a natural part of the syllabus.
This might seem a little complicated at first, but the reality at big FTO's is that you might be sending someone off that you have spent very little time flying with. Reading through previous instructor comments is of course important, but I rather see some of the vital things myself.
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Excuse me Gentlemen but.....i really don't get it....
When i started that thread i was looking for support and opinions from professionals, concerning a subject that i am sure it is very safety critical and important... i was very happy with all your replies but ......what happened now ? ? ?
Why this became a personal dispute ? ?
i cannot express how frustrated i get when instead of opinions i read allusions and personal insults.....
Please help me get this thread back on tracks ............
I declare again the purpose of that thread ........i want to have a discussion concerning what standards of flying is required from flying instructors in order to allow a student to be sent to his/her first solo .....and nothing else irrelevant ......
thank you all....
When i started that thread i was looking for support and opinions from professionals, concerning a subject that i am sure it is very safety critical and important... i was very happy with all your replies
but ......what happened now ? ? ? Why this became a personal dispute ? ?
i cannot express how frustrated i get when instead of opinions i read allusions and personal insults.....
Please help me get this thread back on tracks ............
I declare again the purpose of that thread ........i want to have a discussion concerning what standards of flying is required from flying instructors in order to allow a student to be sent to his/her first solo .....and nothing else irrelevant ......
thank you all....
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Zyg, don't worry too much about it.
There is some good advice on here, take that and try to ignore the rest of the nonsense.
Once you ask a question I'm afraid you have no control of how it then goes along. Pilots are an argumentative bunch sometimes, all you're seeing is that in electronic form!
All of the discussions are relevant though. Even if they do seem a bit grumpy. Would you debrief a first solo formally for example? Obviously I wouldn't for the reasons stated, but would you? Only you can decide that.
One thing to remember on forums is that people aren't always what they might appear at first glance. Indeed there is a good warning at the bottom of each page on this site about it.
I am making no comment about anyone, as I don't have any information, but I've been on this site a long time and there are people on here I know personally or through reputation, their opinion I trust implicitly, otherwise there is always a bowl of salt next to my computer monitor!
There is some good advice on here, take that and try to ignore the rest of the nonsense.
Once you ask a question I'm afraid you have no control of how it then goes along. Pilots are an argumentative bunch sometimes, all you're seeing is that in electronic form!
All of the discussions are relevant though. Even if they do seem a bit grumpy. Would you debrief a first solo formally for example? Obviously I wouldn't for the reasons stated, but would you? Only you can decide that.
One thing to remember on forums is that people aren't always what they might appear at first glance. Indeed there is a good warning at the bottom of each page on this site about it.
I am making no comment about anyone, as I don't have any information, but I've been on this site a long time and there are people on here I know personally or through reputation, their opinion I trust implicitly, otherwise there is always a bowl of salt next to my computer monitor!
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Now, would you like to explain why having a formal debrief immediately after the first solo flight adds anything to the experience or are you just going to snipe from the corner and never actually bother to add anything useful?
(Note the use of the words immediately and formal.)
Do I have to call you names again?
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Actually Pull What are you even an instructor?
Going back to the old theory of learning as an instructor you should know when your student is going to be receptive to information be able to process it and learn from it.
Hence why sometimes if the student has a particularly bad trip you don't actually debrief immediately afterwards. You let them go off have a coffee have a think about what happened form there own thoughts about what went wrong. Then once they are in the right frame of mind do you start debriefing. And a good instructor will let them debrief themselves. The reason for this is so you can spot if there has been a fundemental bit of knowledge been miss interpreted. Then if they miss anything (quite often they have done something you haven't spotted) you add it on at the end along with your couple of high points.
The solo student isn't in the right frame of mind 9 times out of 10 to drive a car never mind sit down and discuss the finer points of the just flown circuit.
The reason why I instruct is so that other people get the same amount of enjoyment out of flying as I do. Its meant to be safe and fun.
Without going through all the accident reports and counting to be honest the solo phase of training is actually the least likely part for the student to have an accident. In the last 15 years I can think of only 2 fatalities with solo students. One was a CFIT from an Intergrated school and the other the lad at Southend. You are far more likely as a student to have an accident with an instructor on board.
As a matter of interest the Mil chaps what was your de brief after solo? My mates who were in the UAS seemed to be transported to the mess to buy a keg of beer.
Going back to the old theory of learning as an instructor you should know when your student is going to be receptive to information be able to process it and learn from it.
Hence why sometimes if the student has a particularly bad trip you don't actually debrief immediately afterwards. You let them go off have a coffee have a think about what happened form there own thoughts about what went wrong. Then once they are in the right frame of mind do you start debriefing. And a good instructor will let them debrief themselves. The reason for this is so you can spot if there has been a fundemental bit of knowledge been miss interpreted. Then if they miss anything (quite often they have done something you haven't spotted) you add it on at the end along with your couple of high points.
The solo student isn't in the right frame of mind 9 times out of 10 to drive a car never mind sit down and discuss the finer points of the just flown circuit.
The reason why I instruct is so that other people get the same amount of enjoyment out of flying as I do. Its meant to be safe and fun.
Without going through all the accident reports and counting to be honest the solo phase of training is actually the least likely part for the student to have an accident. In the last 15 years I can think of only 2 fatalities with solo students. One was a CFIT from an Intergrated school and the other the lad at Southend. You are far more likely as a student to have an accident with an instructor on board.
As a matter of interest the Mil chaps what was your de brief after solo? My mates who were in the UAS seemed to be transported to the mess to buy a keg of beer.
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Stop trolling and add something useful. All you are being is aggravating for no reason.
If you want to add something, then go ahead, but otherwise you're just going on the ignore list.
I've just looked back through your posting history. It seems you do nothing but post snide comments and I have yet to see a well thought out and considered post from you.
If you want to add something, then go ahead, but otherwise you're just going on the ignore list.
I've just looked back through your posting history. It seems you do nothing but post snide comments and I have yet to see a well thought out and considered post from you.
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So your first observation that he is a tw@t was correct then SAS.
Maybe him and DFC working together would be a match made in heaven.
And yes you can help
Give us your theory on learning and how students process information in the learning enviroment.
Then please explain the factors that can degrade the proccessing of information and the ability to learn form that information.
Then explain how the student will benefit from a formal long debrief from a first solo straight after completion.
Maybe him and DFC working together would be a match made in heaven.
And yes you can help
Give us your theory on learning and how students process information in the learning enviroment.
Then please explain the factors that can degrade the proccessing of information and the ability to learn form that information.
Then explain how the student will benefit from a formal long debrief from a first solo straight after completion.
Last edited by mad_jock; 10th Jun 2010 at 10:18.