Flaps in a turn
Flap asymmetry in the turn is virtually unheard of. Yes, there have been accidents caused by flap asymmetry, but the risk of that happening specifically in a turn is miniscule.
The only reason I would suggest that the practice should be avoided is that it is more difficult for a student pilot to select the correct attitude to maintain the desired IAS if flap is selected when in a turn. But a more expereinced pilot should be able to cope.
Of course, back in Hunter days, the practice of parking the throttle at full power and using 23 flap to out-turn the opposition during 'Harry Doggers' was an essential skill - but that's an altogether different story...
The only reason I would suggest that the practice should be avoided is that it is more difficult for a student pilot to select the correct attitude to maintain the desired IAS if flap is selected when in a turn. But a more expereinced pilot should be able to cope.
Of course, back in Hunter days, the practice of parking the throttle at full power and using 23 flap to out-turn the opposition during 'Harry Doggers' was an essential skill - but that's an altogether different story...
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Making a note.
IT was not very long ago that I heard of asymmetric flap. This was in reference to a PA-28.
Ever since that mention I keep that in mind and mention never to use flaps whilst turning. Only straight-level or descending etc.
IF there is even a 0.01% chance of it happening. What's wrong with abiding by that logic?
I could look at this end, student selects one stage of flap whilst turning, aircraft settles but he is unaware that only one side has gone down, he then selects one more stage. Now 2 stages of flap on up going wing.
What will then occur and would he not have noticed it more if he had been level and straight etc?
And will they all react the same way? *Probably not*
I teach the same method on all aircraft irrespective of design and can't find a problem in doing so.
Ever since that mention I keep that in mind and mention never to use flaps whilst turning. Only straight-level or descending etc.
IF there is even a 0.01% chance of it happening. What's wrong with abiding by that logic?
I could look at this end, student selects one stage of flap whilst turning, aircraft settles but he is unaware that only one side has gone down, he then selects one more stage. Now 2 stages of flap on up going wing.
What will then occur and would he not have noticed it more if he had been level and straight etc?
And will they all react the same way? *Probably not*
I teach the same method on all aircraft irrespective of design and can't find a problem in doing so.
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aircraft settles but he is unaware that only one side has gone down
This from Google books Airplane Flying Handbook - Google Books
and from the AAIB http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...pdf_502394.pdf
I think the incident with the C172 (1. 1985) MIGHT refer to a story I was told by an instructor who later became a CAA flight ops inspector (?). If that is the case the report in the article doesn't do justice to the trauma experienced after the asymmetric flap and the efforts that had to be made in order to maintain control. The comment in the report
On selection of 0° flap from 10°, a loud bang was heard and the aircraft rolled right. The instructor had to apply full left aileron and rudder and close the throttle
to arrest the roll.
to arrest the roll.
This is an event that would NOT go unnoticed!
I teach the same method on all aircraft irrespective of design and can't find a problem in doing so
KR
FOK
Last edited by FlyingOfficerKite; 28th Mar 2010 at 11:35.
Cases of engine failure outnumber flap failure by tens of thousands to one. Should we therefore avoid reliance on an engine?
I use a constant aspect approach which means that from downwind to very short final I am in a turn. Flaps down as and when required. I'd no idea I was dicing with death all these years. I'm shaking now.
I use a constant aspect approach which means that from downwind to very short final I am in a turn. Flaps down as and when required. I'd no idea I was dicing with death all these years. I'm shaking now.
The POH or AFM doesn't teach you how to fly, it simply has "guidelines" and the Limitation Section.
A C172 POH doesn't state to not fly the aircraft upside down, it only states a max. positive and max. negative g-loading
A PA-28 POH does not state not to land in a 40 kt crosswind, it only states a maximum demonstrated xw component.
So the POH does not state not to put the flaps down in a turn...point being?
That it is good airman ship and proper planning to do so?
The fact that it is not mentioned does not make the opposite correct.
Lots of reasons have already been mentioned as to why this is not a good idea for primary training:
40 hrs of training is not enough to learn all the in's and out's of airplane control.
Assuming so is like comparing a fresh drivers license holder to Colin McRae, we shouldn't encourage them to use the hand brake in a turn either even though it is a very effective technique.
Arguments like: this is what I can do ( with all my experience) so therefore I teach it (or allow it) are dangerous.
This is going to come across as arrogant, but that hasn't stopped any of the previous posters either, I can use flaps in a turn down low to the ground and even bring them back up just prior to touchdown. But that doesn't mean that I teach it.
I was a very dangerous flight instructor for the first year or so, teaching students what I can do. Luckily I learned before I got anybody killed.
Teaching what you know and what you can do is not what flight instruction is about.
Teaching the part of it which is appropriate to the certificate or rating is.
So to summarize:
because as a Private Pilot you do not have the skills and knowledge to do so with any degree of safety.
A C172 POH doesn't state to not fly the aircraft upside down, it only states a max. positive and max. negative g-loading
A PA-28 POH does not state not to land in a 40 kt crosswind, it only states a maximum demonstrated xw component.
So the POH does not state not to put the flaps down in a turn...point being?
That it is good airman ship and proper planning to do so?
The fact that it is not mentioned does not make the opposite correct.
Lots of reasons have already been mentioned as to why this is not a good idea for primary training:
- altitude control
- speed control
- spatial orientation
- division of attention
40 hrs of training is not enough to learn all the in's and out's of airplane control.
Assuming so is like comparing a fresh drivers license holder to Colin McRae, we shouldn't encourage them to use the hand brake in a turn either even though it is a very effective technique.
Arguments like: this is what I can do ( with all my experience) so therefore I teach it (or allow it) are dangerous.
This is going to come across as arrogant, but that hasn't stopped any of the previous posters either, I can use flaps in a turn down low to the ground and even bring them back up just prior to touchdown. But that doesn't mean that I teach it.
I was a very dangerous flight instructor for the first year or so, teaching students what I can do. Luckily I learned before I got anybody killed.
Teaching what you know and what you can do is not what flight instruction is about.
Teaching the part of it which is appropriate to the certificate or rating is.
So to summarize:
- don't put flaps down in a turn
- don't bring flaps up prior to touchdown
- don't go down the entire runway on one wheel
- don't do touch and go's on a short runway
- don't exceed your crosswind limitations, forget about the POH
- don't do gear up low approaches
- don't scud run
- don't penetrate weather
- don't mess with thunderstorms
- don't fly over water with visibility less then 20 miles
- don't fly VFR at night without an instrument rating
because as a Private Pilot you do not have the skills and knowledge to do so with any degree of safety.
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Why are you giving instruction during a Stage Check? The purpose of a Stage Check is to determine if a student meets the standards for that phase of his/her training. If the student could not fly a stabilized approach I guess I could understand making some suggestions but shouldn't the subject of new techniques be taken up the the student's primary instructor? When students are not performing well on a Stage Check I ask them what went wrong. Most of the time they know and after they explain it to me they are able to correct it on a second try. If they don't know what they are doing wrong it's time to end the flight and go have a talk with their instructor. Take a look at the lesson plan for the Stage Checks in your syllabus, I bet you will not find the word "Introduce".
