ICAO English language proficiency
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ICAO English language proficiency
So by my reckoning, March 2011 is the cutoff point where UK JAR licence holders are required to have been assessed at Level 6 English language proficiency. So if you haven't already got (or don't get the option to fly a test of some kind with an FE that has ICAO level 6) the form SRG1199 completed, it's off to an English language school to be taught how to speak aviation English, and pass a test before you can get your JAR licence renewed/revalidated....
Or have I missed something?
Or have I missed something?
No I think you have missed the point. The requirement to have English Language Proficiency on your licence was March 2008 if you want to use RT Internationally. There is no requirement to have level 6 at all, only Level 4 or above.
If you held a UK FRTOL you were automatically given Level 4 as a grandfather right so your licence was reissued with English Proficiency; only the CAA know what level. In theory level 4 must be tested every 3 years but if you still have a FRTOL, surely you must still be entitled to another level 4! Ask yourself, are they likely to take it away after 3 years? Of course not. Ideally on your next flight with an examiner you get the Level 6 endorsement sign off that is valid for life. If you are a native English speaker nobody is going to bust a gut over it. The UK was attempting to demonstrate that it was taking this new ICAO requirement seriously however it wasn't thought out very well.
If you held a UK FRTOL you were automatically given Level 4 as a grandfather right so your licence was reissued with English Proficiency; only the CAA know what level. In theory level 4 must be tested every 3 years but if you still have a FRTOL, surely you must still be entitled to another level 4! Ask yourself, are they likely to take it away after 3 years? Of course not. Ideally on your next flight with an examiner you get the Level 6 endorsement sign off that is valid for life. If you are a native English speaker nobody is going to bust a gut over it. The UK was attempting to demonstrate that it was taking this new ICAO requirement seriously however it wasn't thought out very well.
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I think the CAA may have painted themselves in a corner over this actually, probably without realising the implications....
My reading of the ICAO language proficiency is that it's not just related to International flights - rather, that this is an International requirement to attain Level 6.
Only those people who have passed the RT practical in the last couple of years will have had their form signed off by an RT examiner at Level 6. So everybody else (i.e. pre March 2008 'ish) is still only Level 4. This was the 'getout' used by the CAA in 2008. Only those pilots who have had a flight with an FE (who themselves need to be approved at Level 6), and have the form 1199 signed accordingly by the FE can become registered as Level 6 by sending in the 1199 with their licence when it needs to be renewed/re-validated.
Therefore, anyone who has revalidated thier SEP rating by experience, or doesn't hold an MEP, IMC, IR rating, will have had no need of a flight with an FE... Surely this must mean that there are 100's of pilots out there who will therefore require to be 'tested', as they will not have level 6.
I really don't believe the CAA have thought this through.....
My reading of the ICAO language proficiency is that it's not just related to International flights - rather, that this is an International requirement to attain Level 6.
Only those people who have passed the RT practical in the last couple of years will have had their form signed off by an RT examiner at Level 6. So everybody else (i.e. pre March 2008 'ish) is still only Level 4. This was the 'getout' used by the CAA in 2008. Only those pilots who have had a flight with an FE (who themselves need to be approved at Level 6), and have the form 1199 signed accordingly by the FE can become registered as Level 6 by sending in the 1199 with their licence when it needs to be renewed/re-validated.
Therefore, anyone who has revalidated thier SEP rating by experience, or doesn't hold an MEP, IMC, IR rating, will have had no need of a flight with an FE... Surely this must mean that there are 100's of pilots out there who will therefore require to be 'tested', as they will not have level 6.
I really don't believe the CAA have thought this through.....
All Examiners are Level 6 and it doesn't take a flight test to determine if someone is a native English speaker. The ICAO requirement is here: ICAO | FLS | FAQs
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This issue was raised with the CAA last year and the form SRG 1119 Issue 15,1-9-09 had a small change. The explanation for para. 6, re the English language assessment indicates that if the examiner is satisfied, the PPL can be signed off as level 6, irrespective of whether this form is used for revalidation by experience or other tests. This is theory is stored by the CAA, with no indication in the licence whether one is level 4 or 6. I'm told all will change come full EASA and 2012!
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All Examiners are Level 6 and it doesn't take a flight test to determine if someone is a native English speaker
Examiners are only Level 6 if they have been assessed as such and it actually states in the following document that an examiner has to have been assessed at Level 6 in order to assess someone else at Level 6.
CAA Form SRG 1199
The CAA has determined that certain persons, themselves holding
ICAO Language Proficiency in English at Level 6 - Expert, are acceptable for the conduct of Informal Evaluation of ICAO Language Proficiency in English at Level 6.
The question is 'who assessed the examiner at Level 6?'. You can't state that someone is Level 6 merely on the basis of being an examiner. Yes, the vast majority are native English speakers, very experienced instructors who are able to determine whether or not the examinee would be understood over the radio. However, I (and probably others out there) have occasionally come across the odd UK based examiner who falls short of the ICAO Level 6 descriptors and may not be assessed at Level 6 and therefore, by the CAA's own rules, could not informally assess another person at Level 6.
Surely, whilst it may admittedly seem unnecessarily bureaucratic, in order for the system to work properly, the examiner must have been FORMALLY assessed at Level 6.
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The question is 'who assessed the examiner at Level 6?'.
The question is 'who assessed the examiner at Level 6?'.
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And then of course there are the ground examiners,"GR". How are they awarded level 6 status in order to grant the same ,whilst completing the "revalidation by experience" on pages 1 and 2 of SRG\1119?
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A GR examiner can only hold LVL6 if they have been assessed at LVL 6 through either a direct assessment or through a flight test.
This is because a GRE is awarded differently to a Flight Examiner. A GRE is appointed without a standardisation flight with a CAA FE as it basically an administrative position
As I stated above as Flight Examiners we are/were tested in person by the CAA and this granted LVL6.
This is because a GRE is awarded differently to a Flight Examiner. A GRE is appointed without a standardisation flight with a CAA FE as it basically an administrative position
As I stated above as Flight Examiners we are/were tested in person by the CAA and this granted LVL6.
How are they awarded level 6 status in order to grant the same ,whilst completing the "revalidation by experience" on pages 1 and 2 of SRG\1119?
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This is all very interesting.
I don't suppose anyone recalls which test or process was used by the CAA to validate FE's, etc. at Level 6.
I have a genuine interest in this and am not asking just for the sake of asking.
Cheers.
I don't suppose anyone recalls which test or process was used by the CAA to validate FE's, etc. at Level 6.
I have a genuine interest in this and am not asking just for the sake of asking.
Cheers.
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Are you referring to Staff FE's or us industry FE's? For industry we were granted Lvl6 as part of the continuous assessment during examiner training and the subsequent standardisation ride with a CAA FE.
There are guidelines as what constitutes each level and if you tick the boxes you are granted the appropriate level.
Can you clarify a bit further what you are asking?
There are guidelines as what constitutes each level and if you tick the boxes you are granted the appropriate level.
Can you clarify a bit further what you are asking?
Yes, it was quite simple, they produced a list of all relevant examiners and through a group of senior examiners who had personal knowledge of them, determined that they were fluent English speakers. Thinking about it, there were probably very few they really had to consider. There was no complex process nor did there need to be.
The CAA made a complete bolleaux of this whole thing and well they know it.
They were more $hit scared of being accused of racism if they refused a de facto ICAO English qualification to someone who, whilst holding a UK-issued licence, was not British by birth than anything else.
All UK-born CAA-issued pilot licence holders should have been granted automatic ICAO level 6 English and that would have been that. But no, some timid idiot wouldn't accept that.....
They were more $hit scared of being accused of racism if they refused a de facto ICAO English qualification to someone who, whilst holding a UK-issued licence, was not British by birth than anything else.
All UK-born CAA-issued pilot licence holders should have been granted automatic ICAO level 6 English and that would have been that. But no, some timid idiot wouldn't accept that.....
Last edited by BEagle; 10th Mar 2010 at 07:53.
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Whopity, re the above, a GRE can sign off class rating on a SEP,within the validity period where the revalidation is "by experience". Re Stds Doc 11, version 8, page 8, para 3.3.2b. Ps I agree with all the other comments, "in my very best english"
Pembroke: I was only referring to the English Prof Cert.
If people have been given a Level 4 on the basis of having a FRTOL then as long as they hold it, they will always have a level 4! Nothing is going to change.
If people have been given a Level 4 on the basis of having a FRTOL then as long as they hold it, they will always have a level 4! Nothing is going to change.
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What should the licence say if you're level 6 proficient ? I sent off a renewal with the lvl 6 section signed by an examiner, and AFAIK the licence I got back simply stated that I was English proficient, with no level indicated on the actual licence - identical to what I had when I had level 4 ?
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Nor does the French flight ops inspector when your license is in its last year and they decide that you might only be a level 4 cause they pulled you on something else and you proved them wrong after they filled out the paper work, so hold you on the ground. Your training Deptment faxes through your last LPC form with level 6 signed off on it along with the TRE's papers. The pilots company didn't even bother trying to get the details off the CAA as it was after 16:00z they would proberly want a release of information form, some money and its a 5 day wait at the moment (so many pilots going off to the middle east I presume). Thankfully we escaped getting checked before it was resolved but it sure screwed one crews duty time that day, if they even managed to sort it that day. I realised during the next sector my license was in the same limbo, in its last year with a presumed level 4 on it.
But its policy by the CAA, the fact that pilots might end up in prison over the policy doesn't seem to bother them. Gawd knows what you would do as a private pilot if you get pulled on a Saturday or Friday evening.
What's the reason behind this policy?
But its policy by the CAA, the fact that pilots might end up in prison over the policy doesn't seem to bother them. Gawd knows what you would do as a private pilot if you get pulled on a Saturday or Friday evening.
What's the reason behind this policy?