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Two JAR PPLs ?

Old 2nd Sep 2009, 16:44
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Two JAR PPLs ?

I wonder if anyone can help?
I have a student PPL who wishes to take a UK IMC rating. He has a French PPL and after some paperwork re verification etc from the DGAC, and a payment to the CAA; he has been advised that the JAR(UK) PPL will be issued. ( He needs the UK licence to include the UK specific rating).
However he must surrender his French (JAR)PPL. This seems strange but according to the CAA, it is not possible to hold two eqivalent JAR licences, simultaneously.
For what it's worth,I hold both a JAR and UK ATPL, and have an old FAA "piggyback". Have you encountered this before either as an instructor or a PPL coming to fly in the UK?
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Old 3rd Sep 2009, 09:54
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Is it a French National PPL i.e. issued before JAR-FCL started?

If it is then there is no requirement to give it up.

If however, it was issued after JAR-FCL happened in France then the requirement to surrender is normal.

The rule is that you can only hold 1 JAR licence and 1 JAR Medical. To keep the French licence all that the person has to do is show that it is not a JAR-FCL licence.

What does it say on the licence?
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Old 3rd Sep 2009, 13:25
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This used to be clearly stated in JAR-FCL1 however, I have scoured AL7 and can't find it!
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Old 3rd Sep 2009, 15:44
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Still there - JAR-FCL 1.065(e)
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Old 3rd Sep 2009, 16:34
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Have checked the JAR-FCL reference and will pass on the info. Many thanks to the above
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Old 3rd Sep 2009, 19:18
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Still there - JAR-FCL 1.065(e)
Thanks for that, unchanged!
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Old 4th Sep 2009, 08:13
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Is it that you can't hold 2 JAR licences or two at the same level?
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Old 4th Sep 2009, 11:06
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You cannot hold two JAA licenses (Aeroplane) or (Helicopter) at any level:

(e) An applicant shall hold only one JAR–
FCL licence (aeroplane) and only one medical
certificate at any time.
But you can hold a JAA and a National licence at the same time and Aeroplane and Helicopter licences at the same time.
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Old 4th Sep 2009, 11:09
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What would someone do to merge two JAR FCL licences into one?
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Old 4th Sep 2009, 11:12
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Normally the Authority will withdraw the lower level licence (PPL) on the issue of a professional licence, which automatically includes the lower level privileges.
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Old 4th Sep 2009, 11:14
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I was referring to the situation where someone has a JAR FCL licence in more than one state?
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Old 4th Sep 2009, 12:17
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Should not happen unless there was "an error" on the paperwork.

The ability to (easily) get two licenses from different authorities is prevented by the "State of Licence Issue" requirements.

The only ways that I can think of is to either;

1. Complete PPL course, medical, LST and have JAR-FCL licence issued in country A and then do the course, medical and LST again in country B without ever mentioning country A.

Of course to do that one would have to make a false logbook and a false declaration on the medical questionaire.

2. Use the procedure to have a JAR-FCL licence issued on the basis of an ICAO licence in two different countries. Again this requires a false declaration on the paperwork and false logbook entries.

3. The Authorities make a mistake.
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Old 4th Sep 2009, 12:24
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Or option 4, hold a full national licence in a country that was not JAA and then it becomes JAA and automatically upgrades all licences to FCL ones. Bit like doing a PPL in the UK and doing one in the USA and the USA suddenly becoming stupid enough to become FCL compliant. You end up with 2 FCL licences.
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Old 4th Sep 2009, 17:55
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and automatically upgrades all licences to FCL ones


Where did that happen?

Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL1.005 referrs

A pilot licence issued by a JAA Member State in accordance with the national requirements of that State may be replaced by a JAR–FCL licence subject, where applicable, to conditions.


This is ammendment 7.

I think that previously, a holder of the Old UK PPL (for life national version) could obtain a JAR-FCL licence without having to surrender the PPL. Clearly that is no longer the situation.

Makes sense.

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Old 4th Sep 2009, 20:28
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hold a full national licence in a country that was not JAA and then it becomes JAA and automatically upgrades all licences to FCL ones.
Unless you live there for more than 185 days a year (JAR-FCL 1.070) then the country in which you reside should be the State that administers the JAA licence, any foreign licence should be transferred to that State whereupon they will withdraw the lesser licence.http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG1136FF.pdf

They will still issue a JAA licence to the holder of a UK National PPL or a UK Professional licence without withdrawing any licences. I hold all 3.
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Old 5th Sep 2009, 08:08
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Residence is not the only criteria when it comes to "state of licence issue".

A resident of say France working for a UK company can have the UK as state of licence issue.

Some airlines require state of licence issue to be the same as where the airline is based.
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Old 5th Sep 2009, 18:22
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Indeed. So a country that required the crew flying aircraft of that state to hold a national licence. If that country became FCL compliant and upgraded the crew licences then you could end up with 2.

The CAA answered the question, you choose the state most applicable and that one then sends JAR 155 form to the other to confirm details. Once that is done the two licences are merged together under the one state and the other withdrawn. This is done to ensure ratings such as type ratings or instructor ratings are not lost.

A rare occurance but one that can happen.
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Old 7th Sep 2009, 11:19
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This seems strange but according to the CAA, it is not possible to hold two eqivalent JAR licences, simultaneously.
I have a French JAR ATPL, and a UK JAR PPL, both in-date and valid.
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Old 7th Sep 2009, 16:29
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Cirrus,

I have a French JAR ATPL, and a UK JAR PPL, both in-date and valid
Maybe you have. But that does not make it any more legal.

Cheers,
Redbar1
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Old 7th Sep 2009, 18:21
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Maybe you have. But that does not make it any more legal.
It is not "illegal" - if so, under which law might I be prosecuted?

It may be contrary to JAR regulations - but there are no sanctions for holding both.
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