Two JAR PPLs ?
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry to say DFC, we are not talking about me.
I am just an inquiring mind following the path of your argument and seeing nothing in law to support it. I have merely offered some scenarios on how someone could end up with more than one FCL licence. You have yet to provide a legal reference to support your argument.
I at least made the effort to inquire of the UK CAA if it was possible for such a scenario from both a FCL and medical standpoint.
Here is another scenario. Someone could hold a JAA PPL in one state and a national CPL/ATPL in another state. When that other state becomes FCL compliant the pilot applies in that state for a new FCL CPL/ATPL and is granted it under grandfather rights. They then end up with two FCL licences. Now the JAA PPL might have a whole raft of ratings on it that the pilot does not want to lose and of course the CPL/ATPL may have the type ratings etc from the pilots day job and they don't want to be lost either. So the pilot ends up with 2 FCL licences.
At that point they really would want a single state of issue and so would have one of the CAA's complete a JAR 155 to to confirm the details. The two licences then get merged into a single licence under a single state.
But in the interim the pilot holds 2 FCL licences.
I am just an inquiring mind following the path of your argument and seeing nothing in law to support it. I have merely offered some scenarios on how someone could end up with more than one FCL licence. You have yet to provide a legal reference to support your argument.
I at least made the effort to inquire of the UK CAA if it was possible for such a scenario from both a FCL and medical standpoint.
Here is another scenario. Someone could hold a JAA PPL in one state and a national CPL/ATPL in another state. When that other state becomes FCL compliant the pilot applies in that state for a new FCL CPL/ATPL and is granted it under grandfather rights. They then end up with two FCL licences. Now the JAA PPL might have a whole raft of ratings on it that the pilot does not want to lose and of course the CPL/ATPL may have the type ratings etc from the pilots day job and they don't want to be lost either. So the pilot ends up with 2 FCL licences.
At that point they really would want a single state of issue and so would have one of the CAA's complete a JAR 155 to to confirm the details. The two licences then get merged into a single licence under a single state.
But in the interim the pilot holds 2 FCL licences.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Euroland
Posts: 2,814
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by BoseX
Yep, as does mine. I have my JAA Class 1 done in the UK but my primary licence is outside the UK.
With the extensive detailed knowledge of JAR required to become a HOT at a TRTO, you should be telling us the situation rather than asking the questions. That will be the TRTO that approval support at the CAA can't find the details of!!!
However, even if you claim to have licenses in UK and another JAR-FCL country one minute and deny it the next it makes little difference since you have brought up an interesting issue.
That is why I ask you to give me the name of the country other than the UK where you "could" also have a JAR-FCL licence.
You keep asking for the law but fail to see that in the absence of a State of Licence issue it is impossible to decide jurisdiction.
Here is another scenario. Someone could hold a JAA PPL in one state and a national CPL/ATPL in another state. When that other state becomes FCL compliant the pilot applies in that state for a new FCL CPL/ATPL and is granted it under grandfather rights.
Unless the person completed a PPL training course in country A and did it agan in country B, when the pilot made their first application for a licence in country B they would have supplied details of the licence they held.
Therefore, it is possible the Authority could fail to notice the fact that the applicant already holds a JAR-FCL licence.
The only other posibility is that the pilot made a false declaration and obtained the ATPL by deception.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With the extensive detailed knowledge of JAR required to become a HOT at a TRTO, you should be telling us the situation rather than asking the questions. That will be the TRTO that approval support at the CAA can't find the details of!!!
Seems like a clear statement that you hold a UK licence and your "primary" licence is issued by another JAA country. If it is not then why say such a thing during this debate?
That someone can not get a JAR-FCL licence "under grandfather rights".
Appendix 1 to JAR–FCL 1.005
Minimum requirements for the issue of a JAR–FCL licence/authorisation on the basis
of a national licence/authorisation issued in a JAA Member State
Unless the person completed a PPL training course in country A and did it agan in country B, when the pilot made their first application for a licence in country B they would have supplied details of the licence they held.
Last edited by S-Works; 12th Sep 2009 at 07:12.
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Europe
Posts: 174
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
After following the discussion on semantics, loopholes, surrealistic scenarios, and the total lack of interest (by some) in the underlying intention of the contents of JAR-FCL on this matter , I can only say this:
The statement I made :
is hereby formally withdrawn, to put the record even straighter! I will edit my former post accordingly. It has been a dissapointment to read some of the postings here.
But still, TGIF, great fun, I do not have to nitpick to be legal
Cheers,
Redbar1
The statement I made :
If so, to put the record straight, I stand corrected
But still, TGIF, great fun, I do not have to nitpick to be legal
Cheers,
Redbar1
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Euroland
Posts: 2,814
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
really? then why is there is a specific section of JAR FCL that deals with grandfathering national licences into JAR FCL?
Appendix 1 to JAR–FCL 1.005
Minimum requirements for the issue of a JAR–FCL licence/authorisation on the basis
of a national licence/authorisation issued in a JAA Member State
Appendix 1 to JAR–FCL 1.005
Minimum requirements for the issue of a JAR–FCL licence/authorisation on the basis
of a national licence/authorisation issued in a JAA Member State
To obtain a JAR-FCL licence on the basis of a national licence one has to complete extra requirements. Please read the Appendix you are referring to for the requirements as they relate to the various licenses and what JAR-FCL licence will be issued when the various requirments have been met.
To look at the simplest case, your Grandfather with 60 Hours on their UK PPL can not get a JAA PPL. With 6000 hours they will not get a JAA PPL unless they demonstrate the required knowledge - knowledge that is extra to that required for a national licence holder.
I do indeed hold a UK licence and my JAA licence is issued by another country. Just like many, my licence predates JAA. As you mentioned earlier, there are certain companies that require there crew to change the state of registration to the same as the aircraft. I still have my Class 1 done in the UK.
Stop tying yourself in knots. If you were employed as a Head of Training at a TRTO in the UK then any requirement to have the licence and country of employment matched would result in you having a licence issued in the UK.
Joking aside, I don't mind debating issues with you regardless of if you have no flying qualifications or you are the Head of the CAA (your aviation knowledge may easily be far more extensive). So please stop making a fool of yourself by claiming to be something or to have spoken with someone else just to push some aspect of the debate. You are doing nothing other than making a fool of yourself when you later have to furiously backtrack over all that you were saying.
Still waiting for the JAA country where your JAR-FCL licence is issued to answer your question about the law!!
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So now you don't have two JAA licenses, you have a UK National licence and a JAA Licence so nothing in this debate has anything to do with all those points you were making other than the fact that the JAA licence will not be valid unless it includes a medical and you have met the State's requirements regarding having the original medical report and copy of the certificate sent to them Otherwise when checked, their records will show that you have not held a medical since..........
My personal circumstances were and are nothing to do with the original debate.
I read through the JAR FCL that I quoted on converting a national licence and the purpose if it is to grandfather pilots into JAA FCL. It is is quite thorough on what can and can't be counted. A CPL/IR on a SPA for example with greater than 500 hours P1 can automatically get a JAR FCL licence with no further action.
Stick with the post rather than your attacks on me. I trust the copy of my 'imaginary TRTO' certificate was sufficient to spoil your breakfast?
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Euroland
Posts: 2,814
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BoseX,
My emphasis.
Please re-read the requirements again and in particular pay attention to;
Clearly it does not say that you can walk in to the office with a national CPL and logbook and walk out with a JAA CPL even if you have 5000 hours.
What may be confusing you is that many of the requirements have in the UK been overtaken by time and other issues. For example the english language proficiency is something that most active national licence holders will already have. Most national licence holders will have renewed or revalidated their ratings in accordance with JAR-FCL since that is the only way they are done these days.
-----------
It did make me laugh quite a lot. Not enough to spoil my Breakfast though.
Problem is that the imaginary certificate you PM'd me;
was not a TRTO certificate
was not valid in July when I questioned your claims and you PM'd me the TRTO number you had and the aircraft you were providing training for
Does not have the same number as the one you told me in July
and
Does not have the aircraft you said in July you were training on listed.
and
Are you surprised that based on this and your lack of knowledge of JAR-FCL that I am to put it mildly "suspicious".
Coupled with the fact that you have hidden the base aerodrome which is public information in the case of TRTO's, FTOs and RTF's.
Perhaps best that you simply stick to debating things rather than claiming to be something in order to add weight to your argument.
I read through the JAR FCL that I quoted on converting a national licence and the purpose if it is to grandfather pilots into JAA FCL. It is is quite thorough on what can and can't be counted. A CPL/IR on a SPA for example with greater than 500 hours P1 can automatically get a JAR FCL licence with no further action.
My emphasis.
Please re-read the requirements again and in particular pay attention to;
A pilot licence issued by a JAA Member State in accordance with the national requirements of that
State may be replaced by a JAR–FCL licence subject, where applicable, to conditions. For the
replacement of such licences the holder shall:
(a) for ATPL(A) and CPL(A), complete as a proficiency check, type/class and instrument rating (IR if
applicable) revalidation requirements of JAR-FCL 1.245(b)(1), JAR-FCL 1.245(c)(1)(i) or 1.245(c)(2)
relevant to the privileges of the licence held.
(b) (i) for ATPL(A) and CPL(A) demonstrate to the satisfaction of the Authority that a knowledge of the
relevant parts of JAR–OPS 1 and JAR–FCL (see AMC FCL 1.005 & 1.015) has been acquired;
(ii) for PPL(A) only demonstrate to the satisfaction of the Authority that a knowledge of the
relevant parts of JAA Requirements (see AMC FCL 1.125) has been acquired;
(c) demonstrate a knowledge of English in accordance with JAR–FCL 1.200 if IR privileges are held;State may be replaced by a JAR–FCL licence subject, where applicable, to conditions. For the
replacement of such licences the holder shall:
(a) for ATPL(A) and CPL(A), complete as a proficiency check, type/class and instrument rating (IR if
applicable) revalidation requirements of JAR-FCL 1.245(b)(1), JAR-FCL 1.245(c)(1)(i) or 1.245(c)(2)
relevant to the privileges of the licence held.
(b) (i) for ATPL(A) and CPL(A) demonstrate to the satisfaction of the Authority that a knowledge of the
relevant parts of JAR–OPS 1 and JAR–FCL (see AMC FCL 1.005 & 1.015) has been acquired;
(ii) for PPL(A) only demonstrate to the satisfaction of the Authority that a knowledge of the
relevant parts of JAA Requirements (see AMC FCL 1.125) has been acquired;
Clearly it does not say that you can walk in to the office with a national CPL and logbook and walk out with a JAA CPL even if you have 5000 hours.
What may be confusing you is that many of the requirements have in the UK been overtaken by time and other issues. For example the english language proficiency is something that most active national licence holders will already have. Most national licence holders will have renewed or revalidated their ratings in accordance with JAR-FCL since that is the only way they are done these days.
-----------
I trust the copy of my 'imaginary TRTO' certificate was sufficient to spoil your breakfast?
It did make me laugh quite a lot. Not enough to spoil my Breakfast though.
Problem is that the imaginary certificate you PM'd me;
was not a TRTO certificate
was not valid in July when I questioned your claims and you PM'd me the TRTO number you had and the aircraft you were providing training for
Does not have the same number as the one you told me in July
and
Does not have the aircraft you said in July you were training on listed.
and
Are you surprised that based on this and your lack of knowledge of JAR-FCL that I am to put it mildly "suspicious".
Coupled with the fact that you have hidden the base aerodrome which is public information in the case of TRTO's, FTOs and RTF's.
Perhaps best that you simply stick to debating things rather than claiming to be something in order to add weight to your argument.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Problem is that the imaginary certificate you PM'd me;
was not a TRTO certificate
was not valid in July when I questioned your claims and you PM'd me the TRTO number you had and the aircraft you were providing training for
Does not have the same number as the one you told me in July
was not a TRTO certificate
was not valid in July when I questioned your claims and you PM'd me the TRTO number you had and the aircraft you were providing training for
Does not have the same number as the one you told me in July
Looking at the message I sent you in July the aircraft matches what I told you. I will however apologise for the typo in the FTO number, I hit a 5 instead of a 6, the downside of typing on an iPhone.
If the base airfield is public domain then go look for it if you are really that interested. I was not making your life easy!!
My knowledge of JAR FCL does not need to be encyclopaedic, I just need to know where to look stuff up when needed.
Clearly it does not say that you can walk in to the office with a national CPL and logbook and walk out with a JAA CPL even if you have 5000 hour
Most national licence holders will have renewed or revalidated their ratings in accordance with JAR-FCL since that is the only way they are done these days
b) (i) for ATPL(A) and CPL(A) demonstrate to the satisfaction of the Authority that a knowledge of the
relevant parts of JAR–OPS 1 and JAR–FCL (see AMC FCL 1.005 & 1.015) has been acquired;
relevant parts of JAR–OPS 1 and JAR–FCL (see AMC FCL 1.005 & 1.015) has been acquired;
Perhaps you should stick to debate rather than personal attacks. You have successfully made another thread completely about me. Flattering but also a little stalkerish.......
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Europe
Posts: 174
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
bose-x:
Your definition of "automatic" seems quite odd... apart from filling out forms, obtaining a JAR-FCL medical, pass the appropriate HPL exam, arranging for a ProfCheck, passing said PC, sending the PC form and paperwork to the CAA, and pay the appropriate fee, all this is automatic....
And national licenses are not grandfathered into JAR-FCL licenses, they are transferred. Grandfathering has a completely different meaning.
(And I have not been involved in any discussion about you..)
Cheers,
Redbar1
Other than a paperwork exercise and a proficiency check most people qualify for an automatic issue of a FCL licence
And national licenses are not grandfathered into JAR-FCL licenses, they are transferred. Grandfathering has a completely different meaning.
(And I have not been involved in any discussion about you..
)Cheers,
Redbar1
Last edited by redbar1; 12th Sep 2009 at 12:23.
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Down south
Age: 69
Posts: 364
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi folks have a case still open with the issue of Jar/PPL's
Not possible to have 2 PPL licences from 2 Jar's states.
I Hold a french JAR PPL
Hold an Italian FI(A) Jar + Theoretical Jar CPL.
Have sent all italian documents to the french C of A ( DGAC) in Paris for transcription on my PPL.
By registered mail and never got a reply.
Over the phone the "Service du Personnel Naviguant" at DGAC Paris told me that while France has signed mutual recognition under Jar's, they will not transcribe ratings done in another Jar country.
They suggested me to take all exams again and final test checkride in france
or relinquish my french ppl in favour of the italian one, then deal with the italians.
The italians would not issue me with an italian PPL (JAR) where to transcribe ratings. They must return original french PPL (Jar) to Paris.
The process is now under way.
Italian FAA asked for my medical ( I have a french JAR Medical, hope they will not object to this ).
By the way, off topic, but interesting french peculiarities:
UK Radiotelephony qualification is not recognised in france (for those holding french ppl's)...
Need to pass a test in english with a french inspector.
It also seems, but have no confirmation, that all french airline pilots have been granted Level 6 in English downright...
Not possible to have 2 PPL licences from 2 Jar's states.
I Hold a french JAR PPL
Hold an Italian FI(A) Jar + Theoretical Jar CPL.
Have sent all italian documents to the french C of A ( DGAC) in Paris for transcription on my PPL.
By registered mail and never got a reply.
Over the phone the "Service du Personnel Naviguant" at DGAC Paris told me that while France has signed mutual recognition under Jar's, they will not transcribe ratings done in another Jar country.
They suggested me to take all exams again and final test checkride in france
or relinquish my french ppl in favour of the italian one, then deal with the italians.
The italians would not issue me with an italian PPL (JAR) where to transcribe ratings. They must return original french PPL (Jar) to Paris.
The process is now under way.
Italian FAA asked for my medical ( I have a french JAR Medical, hope they will not object to this ).
By the way, off topic, but interesting french peculiarities:
UK Radiotelephony qualification is not recognised in france (for those holding french ppl's)...
Need to pass a test in english with a french inspector.
It also seems, but have no confirmation, that all french airline pilots have been granted Level 6 in English downright...
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Europe
Posts: 174
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hello Markkal,
Yes, when people start "cut-and-paste"-training in different states, one might find oneself in such a "catch22"-like situation as you describe.
On the first peculiarity you have observed:
There is no obligation on any state to recognise language proficiency tests from other states, for entry into their own licenses.
Your other "peculiarity":
Wow... You know what, I have heard that in Italy, they give away FI(A)'s and CPL theory credits for free...., but, of course, I have no confirmation...
Hey, relax, just kidding, but you had it coming...
Cheers,
Redbar1
Yes, when people start "cut-and-paste"-training in different states, one might find oneself in such a "catch22"-like situation as you describe.
On the first peculiarity you have observed:
Need to pass a test in english with a french inspector
Your other "peculiarity":
It also seems, but have no confirmation, that all french airline pilots have been granted Level 6 in English downright...
Hey, relax, just kidding, but you had it coming...
Cheers,
Redbar1
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Euroland
Posts: 2,814
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Markall,
I am afraid that it is too late for you but the advice I always give in such cases is to ask before you go. Get it in writing if they will accept the course and if they will accept the test and if they do what paperwork they require.
Perhaps an option is to transfer your JAR-FCL licence to Italy, have the rating and knowldge credit entered and then either try and use it in France or transfer it back to France again. The cost of the licence double change will be less than a complete course and test.
Again ask the Authorities before comitting.
The language proficiency is a known issue. Much of the row revolves round the method countries use for trainng, assessing and qualification of the language assessors.
-------
Bose-X,
The initial certificate is issued for 1 year. Provided everything operates correctly, subsequent approvals run for periods of 3 years.
I am afraid that it is too late for you but the advice I always give in such cases is to ask before you go. Get it in writing if they will accept the course and if they will accept the test and if they do what paperwork they require.
Perhaps an option is to transfer your JAR-FCL licence to Italy, have the rating and knowldge credit entered and then either try and use it in France or transfer it back to France again. The cost of the licence double change will be less than a complete course and test.
Again ask the Authorities before comitting.
The language proficiency is a known issue. Much of the row revolves round the method countries use for trainng, assessing and qualification of the language assessors.
-------
Bose-X,
TRTO certificates are issued yearly
DFC
It appears there are two versions of Med164 both bearing the same date though printed differently, 01/12/06 and the other 01122006 in which one has an item II and the other has an item III. My version has no item III. In any case it does not say licence number!
Of course if we were really complying with JAR-FCL our licences would all begin with the postal code of the State of issue in accordance with JAR-FCL 1.075
Perhaps everyone else can also have a look here and see if they can see that there is no item III;
Of course if we were really complying with JAR-FCL our licences would all begin with the postal code of the State of issue in accordance with JAR-FCL 1.075
(III) Serial number commencing
with the postal code of the issuing State
and followed by a code of numbers
and/or letters in Arabic numerals and in
Roman script.
with the postal code of the issuing State
and followed by a code of numbers
and/or letters in Arabic numerals and in
Roman script.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Euroland
Posts: 2,814
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Of course if we were really complying with JAR-FCL our licences would all begin with the postal code of the State of issue in accordance with JAR-FCL 1.075
Example UK/CP/123456A/B
The "UK" is the country postal code for the United Kingdom.
The reason why III is used on the medical and II is not is so that the relevant boxes are common to both licence and medical i.e. Your licence number or CAA reference number (however you wish to describe it) is placed in "III" on both pieces of paper.
Have a look at a JAR-FCL licence and medical - the boxes on both match-up. Quite and important check on a ramp check or if A another pilot wants to fly your aircraft.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: bored
Posts: 532
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Have a look at a JAR-FCL licence and medical - the boxes on both match-up. Quite and important check on a ramp check or if A another pilot wants to fly your aircraft.
The process by which I ended up with a UK JAR PPL and a French ATPL is that on completion of my CPL test in France, I surrendered my JAR PPL as is required by the licencing authority (DGAC in my case) . The DGAC returned my JAR PPL along with my newly issued CPL. They did not transfer the ratings (FI and seaplane) from my PPL to my CPL. I have informed the CAA of this situation - they did not object.
I think that my situation may have arisen because the DGAC will not recognise non-French FI ratings, so they could not transfer my UK FI rating to my French CPL. They therefore returned my PPL.
As I only fly seaplanes for fun, this is not such an issue as I can do so on my UK PPL. But I had to redo the FI qualification entirely in order to instruct in France.
Last edited by CirrusF; 13th Sep 2009 at 20:01.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Euroland
Posts: 2,814
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think that my situation may have arisen because the DGAC will not recognise non-French FI ratings, so they could not transfer my UK FI rating to my French CPL. They therefore returned my PPL.
Just because they sent you back the PPL it does not mean that it is valid.
You are correct about the French attitude to non-French FI ratings.
France is your State of Licence issue. The DGAC decides what JAR ratings you hold and if they say no FI rating then the UK CAA can not object.
The rule is simple - you can not hold more than one valid JAR-FCL licence or medical at the same time.
It does not matter that requirements such as this are not included in national legislation. The matter is covered by the requirements of Mutual Recognition and holders of JAR-FCL licenses to demonstrate knowledge of JAR-FCL.
Note well that pilots UK are required to demonstrate knowledge of JAR-FCL and not simply what bits of JAR-FCL have been included in the ANO directly.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: bored
Posts: 532
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just because they sent you back the PPL it does not mean that it is valid.
My JAR PPL is still valid - I specifically asked the CAA, as I wanted to carry on flying seaplanes in a private capacity. When I had to renew the seaplane rating, I explained the situation in full and sent a copy of my French CPL along with my UK PPL, and the rating renewal form. CAA sent back my PPL with the rating renewed. I have also declared everything to the insurance.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Euroland
Posts: 2,814
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CirrusF,
I would be more interested in what France - your State of Licence Issue has to say on the matter. They are the ones who decide what you are licensed to fly under JAR-FCL until you complete the process for changing the State of Licence Issue back to the UK.
Be very carefull - if the CAA say that your JAR-PPL is valid then by definition they are saying that you do not hold a higher JAA licence which is valid.
If you fly professionally, I recomend that rather than you asking each authority individually, you ask for a joint statement and they they jointly agree which state will be State of Licence Issue.
You have not given us the reason why the DGAC did not put the SEP_Sea on your licence? What did they say when you asked?
I would be more interested in what France - your State of Licence Issue has to say on the matter. They are the ones who decide what you are licensed to fly under JAR-FCL until you complete the process for changing the State of Licence Issue back to the UK.
Be very carefull - if the CAA say that your JAR-PPL is valid then by definition they are saying that you do not hold a higher JAA licence which is valid.
If you fly professionally, I recomend that rather than you asking each authority individually, you ask for a joint statement and they they jointly agree which state will be State of Licence Issue.
You have not given us the reason why the DGAC did not put the SEP_Sea on your licence? What did they say when you asked?
