Two JAR PPLs ?
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Wrong.
JAR-FCL has been implemented into national regulations by all recognised member states. One condition to be met before mutual recognition of a member state was to prove the implementation of JAR-FCL into national regulations of said state.
Ergo: Any breach of a regulation in JAR-FCL is per se a breach against national regulations of the appliccable member state.
Did you think that mutual recognition of your licenses came as a free lunch??
Cheers,
Redbar1
JAR-FCL has been implemented into national regulations by all recognised member states. One condition to be met before mutual recognition of a member state was to prove the implementation of JAR-FCL into national regulations of said state.
Ergo: Any breach of a regulation in JAR-FCL is per se a breach against national regulations of the appliccable member state.
Did you think that mutual recognition of your licenses came as a free lunch??
Cheers,
Redbar1
NO RIGHT!
In the UK, only specific parts of JAR-FCL have been incorporated into UK Law. Those specific parts are annotated in the UK Air Navigation Order (That is the Law) The majority of JAR-FCL has no legal status whatsoever. As I stated, there is nothing in UK law preventing a person from holding two JAA licences. If they do, then it is the issuing Authority that has failed to comply with the spirit of the JAA, by issuing a second licence, it is not the holders responsibility. I am aware that some States have incorporated all of JAR-FCL into their law but the UK did not.
JAR-FCL has been implemented into national regulations by all recognised member states.
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I have a French JAR ATPL, and a UK JAR PPL, both in-date and valid.
Both may be in date but I don't think that both are valid.
If I was looking at your documentation, the quickest way to answer that question is to ask you to take out your most recent medical and read the licence number from that medical. That licence is the only one that you can use because that is the only one with a valid medical.
A UK issued medical certificate only carries a CAA Reference number. All such numbers originated in the CAA medical dept. Whilst the same number normally appears on all CAA issued licences, it can be perfectly valid with a licence bearing another number such as an old CAA 5 figure number. Even with a French ATPL, if the JAA medical certificate was obtained in the UK, and you have a CAA medical reference number, that number could appear on the medical certificate.
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Hi Whopity:
..and I am left to wonder how on earth you UK guys got away with that one?
Anyway, thanks for the info. Will look into it, just curious.
Cheers,
Redbar1
In the UK, only specific parts of JAR-FCL have been incorporated into UK Law. Those specific parts are annotated in the UK Air Navigation Order (That is the Law) The majority of JAR-FCL has no legal status whatsoever.
..and I am left to wonder how on earth you UK guys got away with that one?
Anyway, thanks for the info. Will look into it, just curious.
Cheers,
Redbar1
Last edited by redbar1; 11th Sep 2009 at 22:00.
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Have a read of the ANO;
(6) A medical certificate is deemed to form part of the licence.
Most countries have very similar requirements.
When one needs to renew a medical one can do it with any appropriately approved JAR-AME. You are legally required to answer all the questions posed on the form correctly and fully. Those questions include details of licences held and number.
The licence number is very important becasue the AME must know which Authority they are doing the medical for and where to send the report.
As soon as the medical is completed all previous medicals (from any JAR country) are void. Note that I did not say passed. This is because if you fail the medical it makes no matter that you have a medical from another authority, it is cancelled at that point.
Finally, slipping a medical certificate into the pocket of a licence does not make that medical "included in the licence" as per 32(2) of the ANO. Every JAR country requires that only that Authority or people authorised by that Authority can include something in a licence. Anything included in a licence will have the licence number on it.
So if through some admin error or some other method one ended up with two JAR-FCL licenses it is safe to say that only one would be valid - usually the higher licence but if the medical fails to match, it could be the lower one.
It is possible to have more than one licence number included on a JAR medical. I have a national licence and a JAR licence. The numbers are not the same so I have both numbers put on the medical and get two copies. I am regularly reminded that I can only have one JAR licence but when I show that the second one is a national licence there is no problem.
Finally, leaving aside the medical issue, from a practical point of view it makes no difference provided that the pilot does not try to use the situation to fly illegally - using instrument rating in licence B when they have failed a renewal test for the IR in licence A.
If people want to pay the 5 yearly fee twice then let them. There is nothing to be gained.
Requirement for a medical certificate
32
32
(1) This article applies to any licence granted under article 27, other than a National
Private Pilot's Licence (Aeroplanes) or a Flight Radiotelephony Operator's Licence.
(2) The holder of a licence to which this article applies is not entitled to perform any of
the functions to which his licence relates unless it includes an appropriate valid
medical certificate issued under paragraph (4).
(3) Every applicant for or holder of a licence to which this article applies must, whenever
the CAA requires, submit himself to medical examination by a person approved by the
CAA, either generally or in a particular case or class of cases, who must make a report
to the CAA in such form as the CAA may require.
(4) On the basis of such medical examination, the CAA or any person approved by it as
competent to do so may issue a medical certificate subject to such conditions as it or
he thinks fit to the effect that it or he has assessed the holder of the licence as
meeting the requirements specified by the CAA in respect of the certificate.
(5) A medical certificate will, without prejudice to article 32B(3), be valid for such period as
is specified in the certificate.
Private Pilot's Licence (Aeroplanes) or a Flight Radiotelephony Operator's Licence.
(2) The holder of a licence to which this article applies is not entitled to perform any of
the functions to which his licence relates unless it includes an appropriate valid
medical certificate issued under paragraph (4).
(3) Every applicant for or holder of a licence to which this article applies must, whenever
the CAA requires, submit himself to medical examination by a person approved by the
CAA, either generally or in a particular case or class of cases, who must make a report
to the CAA in such form as the CAA may require.
(4) On the basis of such medical examination, the CAA or any person approved by it as
competent to do so may issue a medical certificate subject to such conditions as it or
he thinks fit to the effect that it or he has assessed the holder of the licence as
meeting the requirements specified by the CAA in respect of the certificate.
(5) A medical certificate will, without prejudice to article 32B(3), be valid for such period as
is specified in the certificate.
(6) A medical certificate is deemed to form part of the licence.
Most countries have very similar requirements.
When one needs to renew a medical one can do it with any appropriately approved JAR-AME. You are legally required to answer all the questions posed on the form correctly and fully. Those questions include details of licences held and number.
The licence number is very important becasue the AME must know which Authority they are doing the medical for and where to send the report.
As soon as the medical is completed all previous medicals (from any JAR country) are void. Note that I did not say passed. This is because if you fail the medical it makes no matter that you have a medical from another authority, it is cancelled at that point.
Finally, slipping a medical certificate into the pocket of a licence does not make that medical "included in the licence" as per 32(2) of the ANO. Every JAR country requires that only that Authority or people authorised by that Authority can include something in a licence. Anything included in a licence will have the licence number on it.
So if through some admin error or some other method one ended up with two JAR-FCL licenses it is safe to say that only one would be valid - usually the higher licence but if the medical fails to match, it could be the lower one.
It is possible to have more than one licence number included on a JAR medical. I have a national licence and a JAR licence. The numbers are not the same so I have both numbers put on the medical and get two copies. I am regularly reminded that I can only have one JAR licence but when I show that the second one is a national licence there is no problem.
Finally, leaving aside the medical issue, from a practical point of view it makes no difference provided that the pilot does not try to use the situation to fly illegally - using instrument rating in licence B when they have failed a renewal test for the IR in licence A.
If people want to pay the 5 yearly fee twice then let them. There is nothing to be gained.
As soon as the medical is completed all previous medicals (from any JAR country) are void.
(5) A medical certificate will, without prejudice to article 32B(3), be valid for such period as is specified in the certificate.
Anything included in a licence will have the licence number on it.
(2) The holder of a licence to which this article applies is not entitled to perform any of the functions to which his licence relates unless it includes an appropriate valid medical certificate issued under paragraph (4).
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Take out a current JAR-FCL medical certificate and have a look at it.
I State of Licence Issue
This is the State that has issued the JAR-FCL licence to which the medical relates. Only one State can be entered.
III Licence Number
This is the Licence number of the JAR-FCL Licence that is issued by the above State. You can have other National Licence numbers included if you want.
Then have a look at the following list on the medical;
Previous Medical Examination Date
Expiry Date of Previous certificate for single pilot air transport operations
Expiry Date of Previous certificate for other commercial operations
Expiry date of previous certificate for Class 2 privileges
Expiry Date of This certificate for single pilot air transport operations
Expiry Date of This certificate for other commercial operations
Expiry Date of This certificate for Class 2 privileges.
When you go for a medical you are required to provide your current (or previous) medical certificate.
At the end of the medical if you are refused a new certificate then the previous certificate is no linger valid.
At the end of the medical if you get a new certifcate then the dates in the new certificate apply even if they are more restrictive than the old certificate.
If a limitation is entered at item XIII for example VDL, then that applies from the date of the medical and one can not claim that the previous medical certificate with no VDL limitation was still valid for class 2 and that is why you don't have the spectacles when you are ramp checked.
I believe that through admin error on the part of an Authority (ie no error or intentional action on the part of the pilot) one could have possibly ended up with two pieces of paper which are JAR-FCL licences. Someone may even be foolish enough to pay two separate Authorities to as they mistakenly see it - keep both valid.
However, The details on the medical have to match the licence. In particular Item I of the Licene and Item I of the Medical have to match as do Item III of both medical and licence.
The only way to get two medicals would be through deception - not telling the truth at the medical examination when asked. That makes both medicals invalid.
I would recomend that anyone finding themselves with two JAR-FCL licenses regularise their situation one way or the other. After all since to get a JAR licence one has to demonstrate knowledge of JAR-FCL they can't claim that they were not aware of the fact that only one JAR-FCL licence can be held.
I State of Licence Issue
This is the State that has issued the JAR-FCL licence to which the medical relates. Only one State can be entered.
III Licence Number
This is the Licence number of the JAR-FCL Licence that is issued by the above State. You can have other National Licence numbers included if you want.
Then have a look at the following list on the medical;
Previous Medical Examination Date
Expiry Date of Previous certificate for single pilot air transport operations
Expiry Date of Previous certificate for other commercial operations
Expiry date of previous certificate for Class 2 privileges
Expiry Date of This certificate for single pilot air transport operations
Expiry Date of This certificate for other commercial operations
Expiry Date of This certificate for Class 2 privileges.
When you go for a medical you are required to provide your current (or previous) medical certificate.
At the end of the medical if you are refused a new certificate then the previous certificate is no linger valid.
At the end of the medical if you get a new certifcate then the dates in the new certificate apply even if they are more restrictive than the old certificate.
If a limitation is entered at item XIII for example VDL, then that applies from the date of the medical and one can not claim that the previous medical certificate with no VDL limitation was still valid for class 2 and that is why you don't have the spectacles when you are ramp checked.
I believe that through admin error on the part of an Authority (ie no error or intentional action on the part of the pilot) one could have possibly ended up with two pieces of paper which are JAR-FCL licences. Someone may even be foolish enough to pay two separate Authorities to as they mistakenly see it - keep both valid.
However, The details on the medical have to match the licence. In particular Item I of the Licene and Item I of the Medical have to match as do Item III of both medical and licence.
The only way to get two medicals would be through deception - not telling the truth at the medical examination when asked. That makes both medicals invalid.
I would recomend that anyone finding themselves with two JAR-FCL licenses regularise their situation one way or the other. After all since to get a JAR licence one has to demonstrate knowledge of JAR-FCL they can't claim that they were not aware of the fact that only one JAR-FCL licence can be held.
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Taking aside the issue of holding two FCL licences. I have spoken to the CAA Medical department this morning and have had it confirmed that the number that goes on the medical is your CAA medical reference number. You can in fact have a medical without holding any type of licence!! It just happens that when you get a licence the medical reference number also becomes your personnel reference number should you have the licence issued in the same state.
They told me that it works this way as AME's are registered with the national authority, so UK AME's are registered with the UK CAA but can issue a JAA FCL3 Compliant Medical and the records are kept by the UK CAA. Other JAA states will accept a UK JAA FCL3 compliant medical to go with their licences. It is therefore perfectly possible and in fact quite common for a medical to carry a different number to the licence.
It is also common practice for non FCL compliant JAA countries to accept FCL3 compliant medicals from other states.
They also told me that you can have as many medicals as you want if you are daft enough to pay for them, however if you misrepresent the facts on any of those medicals you will be prosecuted.
I am sure there are ways of trying to cheat the system as it requires honesty from those participating.
Indeed and is one of the purposes of the JAA FCL 155 form.
They told me that it works this way as AME's are registered with the national authority, so UK AME's are registered with the UK CAA but can issue a JAA FCL3 Compliant Medical and the records are kept by the UK CAA. Other JAA states will accept a UK JAA FCL3 compliant medical to go with their licences. It is therefore perfectly possible and in fact quite common for a medical to carry a different number to the licence.
It is also common practice for non FCL compliant JAA countries to accept FCL3 compliant medicals from other states.
They also told me that you can have as many medicals as you want if you are daft enough to pay for them, however if you misrepresent the facts on any of those medicals you will be prosecuted.
I am sure there are ways of trying to cheat the system as it requires honesty from those participating.
I would recomend that anyone finding themselves with two JAR-FCL licenses regularise their situation one way or the other.
I agree with bose-x.
Done that, there is no Item III! Nowhere on a UK issued JAA medical certificate does it say Licence Number! Item II says: UK CAA reference number!
Never been asked to provide it in 34 years!
Difficult when there is no Item III! Where is this written? certainly not in the UK ANO; so its not law.
Take out a current JAR-FCL medical certificate and have a look at it.
When you go for a medical you are required to provide your current (or previous) medical certificate.
However, The details on the medical have to match the licence. In particular Item I of the Licene and Item I of the Medical have to match as do Item III of both medical and licence.
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To those guys saying that there are no sanctions on holding multiple JAA licenses, be aware. I had to sign a paper when being issued the license, that I declared not to have had a medical JAA or FCL JAA license in another JAA country, with sanctions and license revoked if the declaration was false.
A JAA licence is a licence issued by a National Aviation Authority in accordance with JAR-FCL. The issuing State is known as the State of License issue. The licence says which State issued it and that it complies with JAR-FCL however they are not all identical and each State has implemented JAR-FCL in different ways depending upon its own legal system. Maybe when we get EASA-FCL they will be all the same!
So a JAA PPL issued in Belgium is a Belgian JAA licence.
So a JAA PPL issued in Belgium is a Belgian JAA licence.
Last edited by Whopity; 11th Sep 2009 at 08:06.
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Piper19,
Even if one did not have to sign the declaration, as part of the application process for the licence one had to demonstrate knowledge of JAR-FCL.
One can not hold a JAR-FCL licence and claim that they are unaware of the requirements in JAR-FCL relating to only holding one JAR licence or medical.
---------
Whopity,
I am sitting here looking at a "United Kingdom Civil Aviation Authority Joint Aviation Authorities Medical Certificate". Looks like a "III" to me
Perhaps everyone else can also have a look here and see if they can see that there is no item III;
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/49/SRG_Med_JAACert2006.pdf
While the UK call it "UK CAA Reference Number", when a non-UK licence holder presents themselves to an AME for medical renewal this is the box where their licence number will be placed.
Other Authorities use the title "Licence Number".
The same thing happens when a non-uk pilot does a skill test in the UK - on the LST forms where is says UK CAA Reference Number, we put their non-UK licence number. That is what the Authorities expect.
The words make no difference as long as the number matches the licence and the paperwork is sent to the correct State of Licence Issue.
There is no point in sending an Italian pilots paperwork -State of Licence issue = Italy (be it medical, skill test, LPC or whatever) to the UK CAA. It is the Italian Authority who needs the paperwork.
BoseX is wrong to say
"I have spoken to the CAA Medical department this morning and have had it confirmed that the number that goes on the medical is your CAA medical reference number"
because it misrepresents the question asked and the answer provided which was in relation to a licence where the State of licence issue is the UK.
If the State of licence issue is not the UK then the Licence number or reference number or other identification number from the State of Licence issue will be entered in item III.
If you have never been asked to produce the revious medical certificate then I can only take it that you go to the same AME or AMC every renewal and they check what was entered on your previous medical certificate. I can assure you that if you present yourself to an AME abroad without the previous certificate then you will not get a new certificate.
How do you expect an AME / AMC that has never seen you before to establish the date of expiry of the previous medical certificate, when the las medical exam was completed, when the last ECG was completed and when the next one is due, the last Audiogram if applicable not to mention what limitations are included?
Would you take word of mouth from the pilot / pilots memory as suficient for you to give a medical certificate?
-----------
If a pilot completes their initial medical in the UK, they will be given a UK CAA reference number. This reference number will contain the same numerals as their licence when it is issued by the UK CAA.
JAR-FCL requires that all the requirements for the issue of a licence be completed under one State - the State of Licence issue. There are procedures for States to co-ordinate people moving between the two during training. However, they have to decide which State will be the state of licence issue.
------
Finally the ANO is not applicable in cases such as this unless the pilot never operates outside the UK Territory and the ANO has no jurisdiction over non-UK licenses. A person holding two JAR licenses would have to have at least one non-UK licence.
Agin I say - an admin error can result in someone holding two pieces of paper which both appear to be JAR-FCL licenses. Only through deception can gain oneself two JAR-FCL medicals.
Even if one did not have to sign the declaration, as part of the application process for the licence one had to demonstrate knowledge of JAR-FCL.
One can not hold a JAR-FCL licence and claim that they are unaware of the requirements in JAR-FCL relating to only holding one JAR licence or medical.
---------
Whopity,
Done that, there is no Item III!
Perhaps everyone else can also have a look here and see if they can see that there is no item III;
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/49/SRG_Med_JAACert2006.pdf
While the UK call it "UK CAA Reference Number", when a non-UK licence holder presents themselves to an AME for medical renewal this is the box where their licence number will be placed.
Other Authorities use the title "Licence Number".
The same thing happens when a non-uk pilot does a skill test in the UK - on the LST forms where is says UK CAA Reference Number, we put their non-UK licence number. That is what the Authorities expect.
The words make no difference as long as the number matches the licence and the paperwork is sent to the correct State of Licence Issue.
There is no point in sending an Italian pilots paperwork -State of Licence issue = Italy (be it medical, skill test, LPC or whatever) to the UK CAA. It is the Italian Authority who needs the paperwork.
BoseX is wrong to say
"I have spoken to the CAA Medical department this morning and have had it confirmed that the number that goes on the medical is your CAA medical reference number"
because it misrepresents the question asked and the answer provided which was in relation to a licence where the State of licence issue is the UK.
If the State of licence issue is not the UK then the Licence number or reference number or other identification number from the State of Licence issue will be entered in item III.
If you have never been asked to produce the revious medical certificate then I can only take it that you go to the same AME or AMC every renewal and they check what was entered on your previous medical certificate. I can assure you that if you present yourself to an AME abroad without the previous certificate then you will not get a new certificate.
How do you expect an AME / AMC that has never seen you before to establish the date of expiry of the previous medical certificate, when the las medical exam was completed, when the last ECG was completed and when the next one is due, the last Audiogram if applicable not to mention what limitations are included?
Would you take word of mouth from the pilot / pilots memory as suficient for you to give a medical certificate?
-----------
If a pilot completes their initial medical in the UK, they will be given a UK CAA reference number. This reference number will contain the same numerals as their licence when it is issued by the UK CAA.
JAR-FCL requires that all the requirements for the issue of a licence be completed under one State - the State of Licence issue. There are procedures for States to co-ordinate people moving between the two during training. However, they have to decide which State will be the state of licence issue.
------
Finally the ANO is not applicable in cases such as this unless the pilot never operates outside the UK Territory and the ANO has no jurisdiction over non-UK licenses. A person holding two JAR licenses would have to have at least one non-UK licence.
Agin I say - an admin error can result in someone holding two pieces of paper which both appear to be JAR-FCL licenses. Only through deception can gain oneself two JAR-FCL medicals.
Last edited by DFC; 11th Sep 2009 at 09:25.
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Agin I say - an admin error can result in someone holding two pieces of paper which both appear to be JAR-FCL licenses. Only through deception can gain oneself two JAR-FCL medicals.
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BoseX,
You said earlier;
If the USA did as you describe and you hold a national licence in the USA, when the USA gains mutual recognition, you do not automatically have a JAR licence. You still only have a national licence. To get a JAR licence you have to apply for one and you have to meet the appropriate standards.
If country X issues a licence that says on the cover - Issued in accordance with JAR-FCL standards.then it is a JAR-FCL licence provided that statement is true.
It could not be true if that licence was issued pre-JAR.
So as far as the licence is concerned - either you have made an error or the Authority has made an error. No matter which, one of your licenses is not valid - nor are the ratings inlcuded in that licence.
This can easily be an admin error and easily fixed now but very hard to put right when dealing with a ramp check on a Sunday morning or an insurance company post accident.
The medical must match the licence - furthermore, the original report from the medical examination and a copy of the certificate must be sent to the appropriate State of Licence Issue - they can require further medical tests or alter the validity eventhough you have been given the cert.
If you only hold a UK medical and you have an accident in A Another country's aircraft using a rating in A Another country's licence, they are going to check with their medical authority for your current medical and report from your last medical. If they find nothing, they will class you as not having an appropriate medical included in the licence.
You can have a national licence number and a JAA licence number (reference number for Whopity ) included on the certificate. You are even entitled to a duplicate copy of the certificate at the time of issue so that you don't have to swap the certificate from licence to licence.
I have been dealing with this issue for a few years mostly because a certain airline requires it's crewmembers to transfer their State of Licence issue to the airline's home state - Understandable.
However, that State does not have or recognise national ratings such as the glider towing rating and the IMC rating. In the case of pilots who were flying pre-JAR, they have a national licence and keep that valid including the rating. They use one medical for both licenses. Unfortunately, for those that have no national licence ie those that started flying after JAR, have big problems.
The same thing applies to UK pilots and their IMC rating - those who were flying pre-jar have national PPLs (for life) and can keep their SEP and IMC ratings valid in there. However, pilots who qualified post JAR have a problem. With the IMC it is not such a problem since these pilots can keep a SP-IR very easily.
You said earlier;
Or option 4, hold a full national licence in a country that was not JAA and then it becomes JAA and automatically upgrades all licences to FCL ones. Bit like doing a PPL in the UK and doing one in the USA and the USA suddenly becoming stupid enough to become FCL compliant. You end up with 2 FCL licences.
If country X issues a licence that says on the cover - Issued in accordance with JAR-FCL standards.then it is a JAR-FCL licence provided that statement is true.
It could not be true if that licence was issued pre-JAR.
So as far as the licence is concerned - either you have made an error or the Authority has made an error. No matter which, one of your licenses is not valid - nor are the ratings inlcuded in that licence.
This can easily be an admin error and easily fixed now but very hard to put right when dealing with a ramp check on a Sunday morning or an insurance company post accident.
The medical must match the licence - furthermore, the original report from the medical examination and a copy of the certificate must be sent to the appropriate State of Licence Issue - they can require further medical tests or alter the validity eventhough you have been given the cert.
If you only hold a UK medical and you have an accident in A Another country's aircraft using a rating in A Another country's licence, they are going to check with their medical authority for your current medical and report from your last medical. If they find nothing, they will class you as not having an appropriate medical included in the licence.
You can have a national licence number and a JAA licence number (reference number for Whopity
) included on the certificate. You are even entitled to a duplicate copy of the certificate at the time of issue so that you don't have to swap the certificate from licence to licence.I have been dealing with this issue for a few years mostly because a certain airline requires it's crewmembers to transfer their State of Licence issue to the airline's home state - Understandable.
However, that State does not have or recognise national ratings such as the glider towing rating and the IMC rating. In the case of pilots who were flying pre-JAR, they have a national licence and keep that valid including the rating. They use one medical for both licenses. Unfortunately, for those that have no national licence ie those that started flying after JAR, have big problems.
The same thing applies to UK pilots and their IMC rating - those who were flying pre-jar have national PPLs (for life) and can keep their SEP and IMC ratings valid in there. However, pilots who qualified post JAR have a problem. With the IMC it is not such a problem since these pilots can keep a SP-IR very easily.
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BoseX,
Please tell us which States issued your licences and how one of the national licenses you hold suddenly became a JAR licence with no action on your part. Then we will not be so much in the dark.
In respect of the medical, you should carefully read what it says on it.
On the UK Medical certificate to avoid confusion the UK CAA instructs the holder in respect of the following;
"The holder of this medical certificate is entitled to exercise the privileges of the related JAR-FCL pilot licence subject to any limitations or conditions.
Please tell us which States issued your licences and how one of the national licenses you hold suddenly became a JAR licence with no action on your part. Then we will not be so much in the dark.
In respect of the medical, you should carefully read what it says on it.
On the UK Medical certificate to avoid confusion the UK CAA instructs the holder in respect of the following;
"The holder of this medical certificate is entitled to exercise the privileges of the related JAR-FCL pilot licence subject to any limitations or conditions.