How much slow flight before circuits ?
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"The impetus to fly with a student when the weather isn't suitable for the planned exercise is obviously revenue driven."
Eh ? Whatever makes you say this ?? I get paid a fixed salary with no bonuses or other amounts whether I fly or not, and irrespective of the hours I fly. The total amount of flying the student does to get their licence will not vary based on this one lesson, so there's no revenue change to the organisation. Who's pushing flying based on revenue in this situation ? No-one that I can see.
I have all the hours I could possibly want, so there's no pressure on me to fly other than to provide the very best education for my students.
The impetus for temporarily skipping a lesson in this case is to keep the customer motivated and progressing. The first circuits lesson is always a very busy one for the student. Not having covered stalling will make absolutely zero difference to the student's ability to follow what is one of the busiest lessons we have in the syllabus. I'm perfectly certain that I will catch any tendencies towards inappropriately slow flight and quietly correct them without disrupting the flow of the lesson.
I have no idea how the debate moved onto flying ILS's when students haven't finished circuits. Our primary trainers don't have ILS receivers, and instrument approaches form exactly zero part of the Australian ab initio syllabus. Sounds like a different discussion; back to you on that one.
Eh ? Whatever makes you say this ?? I get paid a fixed salary with no bonuses or other amounts whether I fly or not, and irrespective of the hours I fly. The total amount of flying the student does to get their licence will not vary based on this one lesson, so there's no revenue change to the organisation. Who's pushing flying based on revenue in this situation ? No-one that I can see.
I have all the hours I could possibly want, so there's no pressure on me to fly other than to provide the very best education for my students.
The impetus for temporarily skipping a lesson in this case is to keep the customer motivated and progressing. The first circuits lesson is always a very busy one for the student. Not having covered stalling will make absolutely zero difference to the student's ability to follow what is one of the busiest lessons we have in the syllabus. I'm perfectly certain that I will catch any tendencies towards inappropriately slow flight and quietly correct them without disrupting the flow of the lesson.
I have no idea how the debate moved onto flying ILS's when students haven't finished circuits. Our primary trainers don't have ILS receivers, and instrument approaches form exactly zero part of the Australian ab initio syllabus. Sounds like a different discussion; back to you on that one.
Last edited by Unhinged; 1st Sep 2009 at 08:05.
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Beagle,
Can I ask what the two lessons of straight and level covers and the two lessons of effects of controls? Not taking the piss at all, is there any UA recovery and how to get back to straight and level etc? Two lessons on just S&L seems alot? but again having been through a different syllabus I wouldn't know the benefits.
I too am based in Australia, and concur with Unhinged, only had 1 lesson on Stalls prior to solo, which ran for about 1.2, and covered different configs, powered recovery, non-powered recovery, approach configuration, departure configuration, full flap, wing drop and recovery etc etc. This lesson also covered slow flight. Didn't cover stalls in a turn though, is that something your syllabus covers?
I've certainly done alot of stall practice in the meantime, but only the one lesson prior to solo. Every lesson I had prior to solo(and since) my instructor has always hammered home the importance of Airspeed though, especially on approach and takeoff, a couple of knots too slow and I was getting called out for it.
Can I ask what the two lessons of straight and level covers and the two lessons of effects of controls? Not taking the piss at all, is there any UA recovery and how to get back to straight and level etc? Two lessons on just S&L seems alot? but again having been through a different syllabus I wouldn't know the benefits.
I too am based in Australia, and concur with Unhinged, only had 1 lesson on Stalls prior to solo, which ran for about 1.2, and covered different configs, powered recovery, non-powered recovery, approach configuration, departure configuration, full flap, wing drop and recovery etc etc. This lesson also covered slow flight. Didn't cover stalls in a turn though, is that something your syllabus covers?
I've certainly done alot of stall practice in the meantime, but only the one lesson prior to solo. Every lesson I had prior to solo(and since) my instructor has always hammered home the importance of Airspeed though, especially on approach and takeoff, a couple of knots too slow and I was getting called out for it.
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Can I ask what the two lessons of straight and level covers and the two lessons of effects of controls? Not taking the piss at all, is there any UA recovery and how to get back to straight and level etc? Two lessons on just S&L seems alot? but again having been through a different syllabus I wouldn't know the benefits.
Second is is S&L at various speeds power settings and configurations and the pictures for each. And trimming. Showing them you are trimming for an airspeed not an altitude. And get them flying in balance for all as well.
Personally in the UK I think people don't spend enough time on these 2 lessons before moving onto the rest. If you can get these two bedded in nice the rest follows on very nicely. I know it is a ball ache plodding up and down getting the stu to change speed and trim, taking it off them, untrimming it and doing something to upset it then handing it back for them to sort out. But if you can get them sticking it back to S&L and trimming it in any configuration without thinking the rest of the course falls into place.
A perfect example of how this helps is the downwind. If they have got those two lessons down to pat thier spare capacity is through the roof compared to someone that doesn't. They get a rest on the downwind and ahead of the aircraft which means the don't get knackard after 2 circuits and thus learn better.
To add I find circuits boring as hell so anything to stop us having to spend hours ploding around. All time saved in the circuit can be put to good use by doing an interesting extra Navex to somewhere different with at least a couple of PFL's thrown in.
I'm with you, MJ - circuits are sooooooooo boring!
Well, that explains it. We normally restrict Stalling 1 to the recognition of, and recovery from, the clean stall, covering both fully developed and incipient stalls. There is considerable emphasis on student practice.
Stalling 2 moves on to the stall with power and/or flap and also the stall in the turn. Not the accelerated stall - that doesn't come until we teach steep turns.
1.2 hour is, in my opinion, way too much for a student in the early stages of flight training to cope with. Far, far better to split it into 2 individual exercises.
1 lesson on Stalls prior to solo, which ran for about 1.2, and covered different configs, powered recovery, non-powered recovery, approach configuration, departure configuration, full flap, wing drop and recovery etc etc. This lesson also covered slow flight. Didn't cover stalls in a turn though, is that something your syllabus covers?
Stalling 2 moves on to the stall with power and/or flap and also the stall in the turn. Not the accelerated stall - that doesn't come until we teach steep turns.
1.2 hour is, in my opinion, way too much for a student in the early stages of flight training to cope with. Far, far better to split it into 2 individual exercises.
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My brother has read all your posts and has sent me the following e-mail :-
"Goodness me. Thanks for that.
The unhinged fellow reassured me not to sack the instructor.
Now that my consciousness is raised I'll definitely say no to a premature solo. I will give her a chance to do it aussie style and see if I live to tell the tale."
Thanks everyone for the feedback !
"Goodness me. Thanks for that.
The unhinged fellow reassured me not to sack the instructor.
Now that my consciousness is raised I'll definitely say no to a premature solo. I will give her a chance to do it aussie style and see if I live to tell the tale."
Thanks everyone for the feedback !
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Hello all,
Long time since i was a CFI on light a/c, just retired from airline flying, the last 15 as check airman on A-300/MD-11. I only mention this for background as the one thing we have in excess in the left seat is EGO.
Slow flight is the single best maneuver that can be used to to develop all around instrument skills and also increase confidence in those regimes of flight that are on the edge of stall. The relationship between AOA and power are clearly demonstrated. Once the student has the hang of wings level, throw in 500 fpm climbs and descents, to be followed by timed standard rate turns. These are great confidence builders and the basis of all instrument flying, the scan. Boring as **** for the instructor, but worth its weight in gold for the student.
By the way, I've given training to many an experienced captain in the left seat of the above a/c who could have used this much more in his early days.
Stay safe
Long time since i was a CFI on light a/c, just retired from airline flying, the last 15 as check airman on A-300/MD-11. I only mention this for background as the one thing we have in excess in the left seat is EGO.
Slow flight is the single best maneuver that can be used to to develop all around instrument skills and also increase confidence in those regimes of flight that are on the edge of stall. The relationship between AOA and power are clearly demonstrated. Once the student has the hang of wings level, throw in 500 fpm climbs and descents, to be followed by timed standard rate turns. These are great confidence builders and the basis of all instrument flying, the scan. Boring as **** for the instructor, but worth its weight in gold for the student.
By the way, I've given training to many an experienced captain in the left seat of the above a/c who could have used this much more in his early days.
Stay safe
