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FI Rating skill test revalidate SEP ?

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FI Rating skill test revalidate SEP ?

Old 26th Jun 2009, 18:39
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FI Rating skill test revalidate SEP ?

Just quick question. If one does a flight instructor rating on a SEP and carries out the skill test within 3 months or less of the SEP expiring can the skill test be counted as revalidating your SEP ? I am going to guess the answer here is no but shall ask anyway. Also separately what is the scenario if revalidating your SEP and one of the options is to do 12hrs with 6 PIC and 1 with a FI or FI Examiner if you yourself are an FI - Are you exempt or does it still apply ? Presume answer is also no.

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Old 26th Jun 2009, 18:48
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I have just renewed my FI, SEP and IMC in one (quite long) flight. It needs to be carefully constructed to include all the elements but it can be done in about 2 hours. Advantage is only one examiner fee.

AP
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Old 26th Jun 2009, 18:52
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Aye, I was thinking that the FI skills test includes everything from the SEP revalidation check as far as I know though open to correction here.
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Old 26th Jun 2009, 20:12
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Yes the test will revalidate, as will the pre entry test.

One of the things you will be asked in your FI skills test will be how the SEP is revalidated so I suggest you get out your copy of LASORs and see what is required to revalidate.

It would be a bug*er to fail the skills test because you dont know what the revalidation requirements are.
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Old 26th Jun 2009, 21:21
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It will count if the examiner agrees and signs it off - which I imagine he would.
It is not perhaps widely appreciated though that the 'hour with an instructor' can be replaced by any other skill test or proficiency check, for IR, class or type rating, or for the IMC rating. It doesn't have to be on an SEP, doesn't have to be an hour long, doesn't even have to be on an aircraft (sim for LPC counts).
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Old 27th Jun 2009, 07:54
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It is not perhaps widely appreciated though that the 'hour with an instructor' can be replaced by any other skill test or proficiency check, for IR, class or type rating, or for the IMC rating.

It may not be widely appreciated but it is clearly stated in LASORS and an instructor candidate ought to know the score. I could state the FCL reference but a little self research whould not do any harm.
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Old 27th Jun 2009, 19:58
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Devil

Ha! Whenever anyone says that 'it is clearly stated' it is almost always bollocks, and this is no exception. Yes it is stated, but clearly - my arse. It's buried in LASORS and the wording 'This training flight may be replaced by any other proficiency check or skill test for an instrument, class or type rating with a JAA qualified examiner...' would seem to imply that the FI flight test, or pre-entry test, will not qualify as it is not an instrument, class or type rating. As I say if the FIE signs it off as a training flight then fine, but otherwise.....
As for the second part of your question, redout, no you are not exempt, but see my previous post if you have done any other flight tests in the meantime.
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Old 28th Jun 2009, 14:21
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Quite right the FI test will not qualify you for renewal of an SEP rating. It is a Test, not an instructional flight, and is not for an aircraft or IMC rating, so does not count as your Dual Flight from which FIs are not exempt.

Whilst many FIEs will require you to have a valid SEP rating when presenting yourself for a FI revalidation test, they may if asked nicely, be prepared to conduct both tests on the same flight, for which they can quite rightly charge two test fees because they have two jobs to do.
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Old 28th Jun 2009, 23:02
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The flight test to renew the FI rating [B]can be used to replace the 1 hour with an instructor requirment when revalidating the SEP Class rating.

It is so because the ANO says;

For revalidation of single-pilot single-engine piston aeroplane (land) class
ratings or touring motor glider class ratings (or both) the applicant shall on
single-engine piston aeroplanes (land) or touring motor gliders (as the case
may be) satisfy the requirements specified in paragraph 1.245(c)(1) of
Section 1 of JAR–FCL 1.

ANO

Section 1 Schedule 8 Page 27

and JAR-FCL 1.245(c)(1) says;

(C) a training flight of at
least one hour’s duration with a
FI(A) or CRI(A). This flight may
be replaced by any other
proficiency check or skill test.

Note that there is no limit in the JAR-FCL section refered to by the ANO with regard to the type of proficiency check or skill test.

---------

Yes you can combine the two tests provided that all the required elements are covered i.e. if you are teaching stall recognition and recovery for the instructor test then you would not have to do that again for the SEP. Note that SEP tests now include a navigation element.

If you combine the two it can be a very long test.

Personally, I would recomend that you renew the SEP first as a separate test since that will give you a good warm-up for the instructor test. If you need a test to renew the SEP you may not have done very much flying in the last 12 months?

Regards,

DFC
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Old 29th Jun 2009, 08:49
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DFC reading the references I agree with you. The reference in LASORS is incorrect and may reflect an earlier version of JAR-FCL which has seen a few subtle changes of the wording over the years.

Original guidance was that the FI test did not count but now it does.
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Old 29th Jun 2009, 12:22
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QED. What a load of eurocratic crap.
What you have to remember though is why the training flight was introduced, which was to ensure that old Algernon Fotherington-Smythe, who wheels his Auster out once every month or so and beetles off from his farm strip around the local area and hadn't flown with anyone else for 20 years, was in fact reasonably abreast of how to fly in the modern age and wasn't totally out of touch. It was never meant as a test (which is why it's called a 'training flight') nor was it ever really meant for experienced current pilots who are perfectly capable in day to day flying. So it would be a very hidebound FIE that would not sign off a FI test flight as acceptable for SEP revalidation purposes, whatever the rules say. Renewal is a different matter but we're not talking about that here, so talk of 'tests' for the SEP rating is not accurate.
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Old 29th Jun 2009, 14:47
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DFC, I agree with you that the FI Rating test can be used to revalidate the SEP, as a substitute for the "training flight".

However, in your last three (diminutive) paragraphs, you appear to be confusing two separate cases. "Revalidation" occurs prior to expiry and requires a "Training Flight", for which there is no defined content (and is emphatically not a test), whereas "Renewal" takes place after expiry and requires a test which has, as you correctly say, a navigation element.

As this thread question relates to "Revalidation", your last three paragraphs about combining the "two tests" would seem totally irrelevant to the original question.


... and redout, when you ask ...

Originally Posted by redout
If one does a flight instructor rating on a SEP and carries out the skill test within 3 months or less of the SEP expiring can the skill test be counted as revalidating your SEP ?
... note that the Skill Test (Training Flight) can take place any time during the 12 months preceding the SEP expiry and still count - it is the signing-up of the SEP revalidation that has to take place within the last 3 months - not the actual Training Flight.


JD

Last edited by Jumbo Driver; 29th Jun 2009 at 15:06.
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Old 29th Jun 2009, 15:57
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it is the signing-up of the SEP revalidation that has to take place within the last 3 months - not the actual Training Flight.
And that was another cockup in the UK ANO because there is nothing in JAR-FCL that says it has to be in the last 3 months!
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Old 29th Jun 2009, 19:17
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Jumbo Driver.

Sorry about the formatting however, My reading of the first question was that redout was going to be doing the instructor test during the last 3 months of the validity of the SEP and was seeking to use the instructor test as the LPC also for the SEP Class.

One of the options is to complete an LPC in the last 3 months and that avoids having to have the required experience or the training flight.

The question of using the instructor test to replace the training flight requirement came later.

Regards,

DFC
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Old 29th Jun 2009, 20:27
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OK, DFC, I see what you mean - sorry, I hadn't read it in the sense of revalidating the SEP before expiry by LPC.

Your paragraphs make more sense to me now ...


JD
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