Touch and Go.....
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Touch and Go.....
Recent article in GA magazine in the UK caused a crew-room discussion.
Correct technique for T&G ....power then flaps or flaps then power.
I know what I do and, more importantly, my reasons for teaching it that way....
Others comments please.
DD
Correct technique for T&G ....power then flaps or flaps then power.
I know what I do and, more importantly, my reasons for teaching it that way....
Others comments please.
DD
Flaps up first, then power/rudder. If you apply power, then select flaps up on an aeroplane with electric flaps (Cessna) you may find yourself airborne with retracting flaps, leading to a loss of lift at low airspeed and a rapid sink onto the runway. If there is insufficient runway to safely retract flaps then apply power then the question must be asked, 'why were you trying to land on that runway?'
Power first.
If flaps are raised first a considerable amount of runway is used whilst the aircraft decelerates and then accelerates; the aircraft will therefore be lower during the climbout than otherwise. This may or may not be an issue at a long tarmac runway (depending on how accurate the initial landing was) but WILL be an issue at a shorter grass strip, therefore airmanship dictates power first.
Initially the FI should reset the flaps for the stude; by the time they are ready for solo the stude should be doing it themselves by feel.
Virtually all training aircraft will get airborne with full flap if required so it's not a disaster if the stude forgets. For those that struggle with full flap (e.g. the old C150) the convention is not to use full flap for the landing.
HFD
If flaps are raised first a considerable amount of runway is used whilst the aircraft decelerates and then accelerates; the aircraft will therefore be lower during the climbout than otherwise. This may or may not be an issue at a long tarmac runway (depending on how accurate the initial landing was) but WILL be an issue at a shorter grass strip, therefore airmanship dictates power first.
Initially the FI should reset the flaps for the stude; by the time they are ready for solo the stude should be doing it themselves by feel.
Virtually all training aircraft will get airborne with full flap if required so it's not a disaster if the stude forgets. For those that struggle with full flap (e.g. the old C150) the convention is not to use full flap for the landing.
HFD
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Ponders not very long about it.
After landing, clean up then power up.
Reason being, aircraft is slowing down, allowing you to retract flap instead of powering up then faffing to find the flaps while you are accelerating down that runway.
1/60
Reason being, aircraft is slowing down, allowing you to retract flap instead of powering up then faffing to find the flaps while you are accelerating down that runway.
1/60
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Hello!
Always flaps first. And if they are not up in time (i.e. at the half-runway marking if so briefed), the takeoff is aborted immediately.
You may get away taking off with flaps in landing configuration or in transition in a C172 or Pa28. But try it with a "real" aeroplane and you are going to crash&burn.
Greetings, Max
Always flaps first. And if they are not up in time (i.e. at the half-runway marking if so briefed), the takeoff is aborted immediately.
You may get away taking off with flaps in landing configuration or in transition in a C172 or Pa28. But try it with a "real" aeroplane and you are going to crash&burn.
Greetings, Max
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Interestingly....
Just checked Thoms (TAPM).....that's in the power first camp, as is the R.D. Campbell instructors hand-book.
DD: "Just checked Thoms (TAPM).....that's in the power first camp, as is the R.D. Campbell instructors hand-book" and so are the CFS Bulldog instructor notes.
I gave the reasons earlier for applying power first, but think about the risk if flaps are set first. Bloggs lands a little deep and, rather than braking heavily and frightening the hedge, correctly decides to launch again and have another go but faffs around with flaps - oops no runway left. (Yes, we all know that Bloggs should have gone-around when it became obvious that the landing would be deep but ...).
HFD
Edited to add: I've just noticed that HFD is 10 years old; happy birthday to me, etc
I gave the reasons earlier for applying power first, but think about the risk if flaps are set first. Bloggs lands a little deep and, rather than braking heavily and frightening the hedge, correctly decides to launch again and have another go but faffs around with flaps - oops no runway left. (Yes, we all know that Bloggs should have gone-around when it became obvious that the landing would be deep but ...).
HFD
Edited to add: I've just noticed that HFD is 10 years old; happy birthday to me, etc
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
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Plenty of runway left - flap first.
Not much runway left - power first.
Ostacles at end of runway - power first and retract drag flap, climb at Vx.
VFE.
Not much runway left - power first.
Ostacles at end of runway - power first and retract drag flap, climb at Vx.
VFE.
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Power first, every time no matter how much runway you have. This is good for all a/c, light and heavy, small and large pistons and jet engines. Some engines take a quite few seconds to get wound up, burning up valuable runway in the process. Also the a/c will fly with power on and say for e.g., more than t/o flap set I.E., flaps in transit (you landed with that setting) so you know it flies with the flap you landed with. It may not fly however at the required time/position, if the power required to get airborne is set too late.
A T & G is similar to a missed approach beginning from the ground IMHO. Do you carry out a missed approach by raising the flap first? I hope not!
A T & G is similar to a missed approach beginning from the ground IMHO. Do you carry out a missed approach by raising the flap first? I hope not!
Last edited by doubleu-anker; 1st Feb 2009 at 12:53.
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Aviation Theory Centre's "The Flying Training Manual" (Australia) p220:
Touch-and-Go Landings ...
* move the flap to the take-off setting;
* apply full power and perform a normal take-off.
At least that's the way I have been taught at CPL and FI rating.
Touch-and-Go Landings ...
* move the flap to the take-off setting;
* apply full power and perform a normal take-off.
At least that's the way I have been taught at CPL and FI rating.
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Depends on the aircraft type and the circumstances.
Surely it depends on the aircraft type and the circumstances.
Back in 1960 I was always taught to put power on first, lift off and then wait for speed to increase and then gradually reduce flap, one division at a time, as speed increased. But that was operating an Auster with huge split flaps and only 85 bhp off Manchester Barton's short, rough, grass runways and in hot weather.
More recently, renewing my PPL on a Pa28, where the usual mode of landing is to use full flap and operating off a much longer metalled runway, I was taught that I should reduce flap first to one stage of flap, apply full power and take off in the usual manner. I certainly would not have done this at Barton with the Auster.
I would submit that both methods were correct for the aircraft type and the circumstances. In short, I feel one should not be prescriptive about this. I feel one needs to learn to make an assessment of the situation and alter one's procedure accordingly.
I am not an instructor, but if I was I think I would teach students one particular method but explain that 'this is what we do here and with these aircraft, but once you've got your licence and move on to fly different aircraft in some other place, you will have to assess the new situation for yourself and act accordingly'.
Broomstick.
Back in 1960 I was always taught to put power on first, lift off and then wait for speed to increase and then gradually reduce flap, one division at a time, as speed increased. But that was operating an Auster with huge split flaps and only 85 bhp off Manchester Barton's short, rough, grass runways and in hot weather.
More recently, renewing my PPL on a Pa28, where the usual mode of landing is to use full flap and operating off a much longer metalled runway, I was taught that I should reduce flap first to one stage of flap, apply full power and take off in the usual manner. I certainly would not have done this at Barton with the Auster.
I would submit that both methods were correct for the aircraft type and the circumstances. In short, I feel one should not be prescriptive about this. I feel one needs to learn to make an assessment of the situation and alter one's procedure accordingly.
I am not an instructor, but if I was I think I would teach students one particular method but explain that 'this is what we do here and with these aircraft, but once you've got your licence and move on to fly different aircraft in some other place, you will have to assess the new situation for yourself and act accordingly'.
Broomstick.
Aussie rules are that you have to add 20% on to landing distance for ab initio training. As such, Bloggs should not run out of runway, and if he does he will hopefully have the sense to abort (shouldn't be at marginal strips in the first place with someone who isn't comfortable with the plane)
Always been one for flaps up first. Actually, I'm one for control first (get a hold of the damn thing and point it straight) then flaps then power. If they can't do all that in the length of runway available to them then they shouldn't be up there solo in the first place.
Always been one for flaps up first. Actually, I'm one for control first (get a hold of the damn thing and point it straight) then flaps then power. If they can't do all that in the length of runway available to them then they shouldn't be up there solo in the first place.
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Take your point about control first.
I retired from full time ab initio instruction, some 37 years ago and part time AB instruction 34 years ago, so things may have changed a bit since then. In the schools and clubs I worked at, we never let students do T & G's solo.
I retired from full time ab initio instruction, some 37 years ago and part time AB instruction 34 years ago, so things may have changed a bit since then. In the schools and clubs I worked at, we never let students do T & G's solo.
Touch and Goes
There is another way of doing this that not only covers all the points already made, but also avoids people learning a technique that will make them more likely to retract the gear instead of the flap on the runway.
If you intend to do a 'touch and go' then fly the approach with a flap setting that you are happy to take off with. Then you will not have to retract the flaps on the runway at all.
MJ
If you intend to do a 'touch and go' then fly the approach with a flap setting that you are happy to take off with. Then you will not have to retract the flaps on the runway at all.
MJ
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How's that the blindest bit of use for training, where you'll be changing your settings on virtually every approach sometimes?
I'm very much on the flap first, then power. When you touch down, your speed is relatively high, certainly not that far away from Vy in many aircraft, so that second difference of retracting flap first shouldn't make the blindest bit of difference. If it did the runway is too short.
The last thing you want is for the stude to start rotating whilst the flaps are still retracting in something like a heavy c-150 on a warm day.
Going down..........
I'm very much on the flap first, then power. When you touch down, your speed is relatively high, certainly not that far away from Vy in many aircraft, so that second difference of retracting flap first shouldn't make the blindest bit of difference. If it did the runway is too short.
The last thing you want is for the stude to start rotating whilst the flaps are still retracting in something like a heavy c-150 on a warm day.
Going down..........
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Good morning!
That may be OK if your student is going to fly nothing else but aeroplanes in which this is possible. But as Mr. Seneca (what a coincidence ... ) used to say a long time ago: "We learn, not for school, but for life." So we must teach them a generally applicable way to do it.
I used to fly an aeroplane that wouldn't even let you take off with the flaps and trim in anything else but takeoff-range: The Metroliner has a configuration warning that will scream at you if you advance the power levers and either the flaps or the trim are not in the expected postion (and they will not be at touchdown!). The "power first" technique will lead to an (aurally) unpleasant experience...
The aeroplanes I fly at work now (C550/560) have a smart little device built into them, that will prevent the engines from spooling down below flight idle for eight seconds after touchdown, to give you the necessary time to reconfigure the aircraft for flight without having to worry about engine spool-up times. Since it is touching down at about the same speed as it will take off again (as someone already pointed out), there is no need for immediate accelleration.
I talked to an Airbus pilot about it yesterday, and they have to do this manually: Advance the power levers to 50 percent at touchdown to keep the engines turning, then configure and apply takeoff power _after_ the flaps have moved to takeoff position. If the runway is too short for this, you simply don't do touch-and-gos.
But anyway, as an instructor in a commercial flight training organistion I have to instruct the way that's written in our federal-agency-approved training manual, and this reads (for MEP and SEP and for the PPL and CPL/ATPL syllabi):
1. Retrim for T/O
2. Set flaps for T/O
3. Apply takeoff power
Greetings Max
If you intend to do a 'touch and go' then fly the approach with a flap setting that you are happy to take off with. Then you will not have to retract the flaps on the runway at all.
) used to say a long time ago: "We learn, not for school, but for life." So we must teach them a generally applicable way to do it. I used to fly an aeroplane that wouldn't even let you take off with the flaps and trim in anything else but takeoff-range: The Metroliner has a configuration warning that will scream at you if you advance the power levers and either the flaps or the trim are not in the expected postion (and they will not be at touchdown!). The "power first" technique will lead to an (aurally) unpleasant experience...
The aeroplanes I fly at work now (C550/560) have a smart little device built into them, that will prevent the engines from spooling down below flight idle for eight seconds after touchdown, to give you the necessary time to reconfigure the aircraft for flight without having to worry about engine spool-up times. Since it is touching down at about the same speed as it will take off again (as someone already pointed out), there is no need for immediate accelleration.
I talked to an Airbus pilot about it yesterday, and they have to do this manually: Advance the power levers to 50 percent at touchdown to keep the engines turning, then configure and apply takeoff power _after_ the flaps have moved to takeoff position. If the runway is too short for this, you simply don't do touch-and-gos.
But anyway, as an instructor in a commercial flight training organistion I have to instruct the way that's written in our federal-agency-approved training manual, and this reads (for MEP and SEP and for the PPL and CPL/ATPL syllabi):
1. Retrim for T/O
2. Set flaps for T/O
3. Apply takeoff power
Greetings Max