Important things before first solo
It is interesting to note that you are not following the JAA syllabus where first solo is Ex 14!
The student should only be taught normal landings before solo, don't make things any more complicated than they need to be. Demonstrate a glide and a flapless landing, so that if they had any problems they will have had the benefit of observing the correct procedure, but do not teach it!
They should have been taught, and demonstrate that they know what to do in the event of an Engine failure after take off (EFATO) and make sure they have completed the stalling section of the syllabus.
The student should only be taught normal landings before solo, don't make things any more complicated than they need to be. Demonstrate a glide and a flapless landing, so that if they had any problems they will have had the benefit of observing the correct procedure, but do not teach it!
They should have been taught, and demonstrate that they know what to do in the event of an Engine failure after take off (EFATO) and make sure they have completed the stalling section of the syllabus.
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Hi,
In the Aussie syllabus most students go solo after 15-20 hours. Before flying solo they will have passed the basic first solo exam, flown stall recoveries, engine failure after takeoff and engine failure on downwind/base for a glide approach and flapless landings (In addition to all the other basic necessary lessons to get to the circuit). Once they've demonstrated competency for all emergencies and normal landings they're sent solo by the instructor who looks away out of fear once getting out of the plane.
Cheers,
TSIO540
In the Aussie syllabus most students go solo after 15-20 hours. Before flying solo they will have passed the basic first solo exam, flown stall recoveries, engine failure after takeoff and engine failure on downwind/base for a glide approach and flapless landings (In addition to all the other basic necessary lessons to get to the circuit). Once they've demonstrated competency for all emergencies and normal landings they're sent solo by the instructor who looks away out of fear once getting out of the plane.
Cheers,
TSIO540
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Hello!
It is not as easy as that. There is no such thing as a "JAA syllabus", but every flight training organisation has its own training syllabus based on an outline provided by the JAA and approved by their national authority.
See for example our FTO (we provide training for JAA licenses from PPL to ATPL): Since we are located at a busy international airport, we can consider ourselves lucky if they let us fly one takeoff and one landing there per training flight. All our pattern training is performed at small airfields that are a minimum of 20 flying minutes away (in the C152), the more suitable ones rather 30-40 minutes. So they needed to work out a syllabus based on these circumstances. Our very first training flight already contains the details "cross country navigation" and "familiarisation with controlled airports" (that, in your hypothetical JAA syllabus are probably details no. 25 and 33 or so)! During these positioning flights, we will have done a lot of airwork, stall trainig, practice forced landings and radio-navigation long before the first solo is due. All in full compliance with JAR-FCL / JAA rules. This way, it usually takes around 20 flying hours to get ready for the first solo. But thereafter, the student is nearly ready for solo cross-country flying departing and arriving at a controlled airport!
Regarding the original question: No - glide landings to the runway are usually not trained before the first solo. However, the students will have done around ten PFLs during the positioning flights during their initial training. We practise the engine-out (simulated of course) landings in the brief period between first solo and solo cross-country.
Greetings, Max
It is interesting to note that you are not following the JAA syllabus where first solo is Ex 14!
See for example our FTO (we provide training for JAA licenses from PPL to ATPL): Since we are located at a busy international airport, we can consider ourselves lucky if they let us fly one takeoff and one landing there per training flight. All our pattern training is performed at small airfields that are a minimum of 20 flying minutes away (in the C152), the more suitable ones rather 30-40 minutes. So they needed to work out a syllabus based on these circumstances. Our very first training flight already contains the details "cross country navigation" and "familiarisation with controlled airports" (that, in your hypothetical JAA syllabus are probably details no. 25 and 33 or so)! During these positioning flights, we will have done a lot of airwork, stall trainig, practice forced landings and radio-navigation long before the first solo is due. All in full compliance with JAR-FCL / JAA rules. This way, it usually takes around 20 flying hours to get ready for the first solo. But thereafter, the student is nearly ready for solo cross-country flying departing and arriving at a controlled airport!
Regarding the original question: No - glide landings to the runway are usually not trained before the first solo. However, the students will have done around ten PFLs during the positioning flights during their initial training. We practise the engine-out (simulated of course) landings in the brief period between first solo and solo cross-country.
Greetings, Max
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Our syllabus has a flight with power off touch´n go´s to the runway and a flight to parctise forced landings in the traing area. Those are some of the last flights before the first solo.
I would very hesitant to send a student on his/her first solo if he/she could land the plane without power.
I would very hesitant to send a student on his/her first solo if he/she could land the plane without power.
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Hello!
In my experience, the chances of an engine failure in a piston single are very small compared to things like electrical failure (= no flaps in the C152 = hard landing / bouncing / potential nosewheel damage), blown tyre (= groundloop or runway departure), gusts/downdraft/windshear, radio failure/mishandling (= very, very nervous student...) and many other potentially dangerous things that are not trained before the first solo. You simply cannot prepare your student for everything within the available timeframe.
Greetings, Max
I would very hesitant to send a student on his/her first solo if he/she could land the plane without power.
Greetings, Max
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I always used to say go and drop one long before first solo, especially if flying a 150/152, climbs better. I thought abit of input from a different angle may help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It is not as easy as that. There is no such thing as a "JAA syllabus", but every flight training organisation has its own training syllabus based on an outline provided by the JAA and approved by their national authority.
As this is the basis of he JAA FI Course, everyone should be working to it. The purpose of JAR-FCL was to standardise licence training throughout Europe.
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Good morning!
Yes, you are certainly right. But the full standardisation throughout Europe will take at least one generation, independent from what the regulations say.
I was curious and looked up 1.125 and the appendices in our national (german) JAR-FCL1. As I thougt, at this time it is only a rough outline of about one page, listing the required skills to obtain a PPL. From there it points to "old" national regulations (1.DV LuftPersV) regarding details. Unfortunately, I do not have access to this document from home. Anyway, I strongly doubt that this document has been changed much, or at all, since JAR-FCL was introduced. Which means, as I can tell from my work as an instructor, that our training syllabi have not changed a lot with JAR-FCL (yet!). Maybe the first generation of instructors who learned to fly themselves under JAA rules will bring us closer to an "ideal" standardised world. As of now, we can consider ourselves lucky if all instructors within the same FTO adhere to the same rules...
Greetings, Max
As this is the basis of he JAA FI Course, everyone should be working to it. The purpose of JAR-FCL was to standardise licence training throughout Europe.
I was curious and looked up 1.125 and the appendices in our national (german) JAR-FCL1. As I thougt, at this time it is only a rough outline of about one page, listing the required skills to obtain a PPL. From there it points to "old" national regulations (1.DV LuftPersV) regarding details. Unfortunately, I do not have access to this document from home. Anyway, I strongly doubt that this document has been changed much, or at all, since JAR-FCL was introduced. Which means, as I can tell from my work as an instructor, that our training syllabi have not changed a lot with JAR-FCL (yet!). Maybe the first generation of instructors who learned to fly themselves under JAA rules will bring us closer to an "ideal" standardised world. As of now, we can consider ourselves lucky if all instructors within the same FTO adhere to the same rules...
Greetings, Max
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Pre solo i try cover the following besides normal landing.
12E EFATO
13E Goaround
Simulated; Airspeed, Altimeter, RPM gauge failure. Flap failure both zero flap and stuck flap at goaround. Radio failure. Fanstop downwind to glide on xwind r/w. Glide app. from a simulated stuck throttle. Goaround from bounce/balloon landing. And if likely to happen/permitted, extend/obit procedure. Brake/steering failure.
If the student has got into a bit of a rut and pounding the circuit becomes boring then the student usually switches up a gear and starts to perform better.
Rememeber you don't want a student crashing a plane first solo saying i was never shown/taught how to cope with that. Arse covering exercise.
Sign them off in the students log book.
12E EFATO
13E Goaround
Simulated; Airspeed, Altimeter, RPM gauge failure. Flap failure both zero flap and stuck flap at goaround. Radio failure. Fanstop downwind to glide on xwind r/w. Glide app. from a simulated stuck throttle. Goaround from bounce/balloon landing. And if likely to happen/permitted, extend/obit procedure. Brake/steering failure.
If the student has got into a bit of a rut and pounding the circuit becomes boring then the student usually switches up a gear and starts to perform better.
Rememeber you don't want a student crashing a plane first solo saying i was never shown/taught how to cope with that. Arse covering exercise.
Sign them off in the students log book.
Educated Hillbilly
Bigend Bob,
Agree totally, infact at the school where I use to teach we kept a "check sheet" for each student detailing all the emergencies on which both the instructor would sign to say the emergency training was covered and the student would sign to confirm that they had received the appropriate briefing/ lesson in the air.
Since the incident at Southend when very sadly a student died; the ability to perform a go around from minimum height and an orbit are absolutely crucial.
Agree totally, infact at the school where I use to teach we kept a "check sheet" for each student detailing all the emergencies on which both the instructor would sign to say the emergency training was covered and the student would sign to confirm that they had received the appropriate briefing/ lesson in the air.
Since the incident at Southend when very sadly a student died; the ability to perform a go around from minimum height and an orbit are absolutely crucial.
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Whopity,
Pre-solo I demonstrate, followed by student practice, Glide Approaches as it certainly gives the student more confidence for the landing phase. Indeed, glide approaches have been used time and time again by myself to overcome a student who struggles with the landing under power!
I understand the idea of not complicating matters (and worry that many instructors do precisely that!) but why skip something that can save endless hours burning round the circuit pre-solo? Not to mention the benefit to the student should the engine conk out...
VFE.
Pre-solo I demonstrate, followed by student practice, Glide Approaches as it certainly gives the student more confidence for the landing phase. Indeed, glide approaches have been used time and time again by myself to overcome a student who struggles with the landing under power!
I understand the idea of not complicating matters (and worry that many instructors do precisely that!) but why skip something that can save endless hours burning round the circuit pre-solo? Not to mention the benefit to the student should the engine conk out...
VFE.
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Whopity
Totally agree with VFE.
I find it unusual that you will not get the student to try a couple of glide approaches and flapless landings. What would happen if they had the unusual incident of an engine failure. Surely knowing they had a go at it in training and maybe got it right could be the difference between success and failure.
Whats wrong with teaching flapless. Especially in aircraft like a C150/2. Its not that much more 'complicated'. And its great practise and raises confidence.
Just a few posts above you talk about advantage of having a syllabus. But how about EX12/13E, dealing with emergencies in the circuit. You just seem to be contadicting yourself. Would you not agree that and engine or flap (if electrical) failure in the cicuit IS an emergency and should not be left to just a demonstration.
In another thread you said that the tapered wing PA28 pitches up when the flaps go down. Initially it pitches down, then up.
I find it unusual that you will not get the student to try a couple of glide approaches and flapless landings. What would happen if they had the unusual incident of an engine failure. Surely knowing they had a go at it in training and maybe got it right could be the difference between success and failure.
Whats wrong with teaching flapless. Especially in aircraft like a C150/2. Its not that much more 'complicated'. And its great practise and raises confidence.
Just a few posts above you talk about advantage of having a syllabus. But how about EX12/13E, dealing with emergencies in the circuit. You just seem to be contadicting yourself. Would you not agree that and engine or flap (if electrical) failure in the cicuit IS an emergency and should not be left to just a demonstration.
In another thread you said that the tapered wing PA28 pitches up when the flaps go down. Initially it pitches down, then up.
Last edited by jamestkirk; 5th Nov 2008 at 12:36.
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Heavens Whopity ole chap, James had the height and the sun right behind him there! This could get messy... 
VFE.
VFE.
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Chaps.
Do remember that the aim of the game is training a competent pilot who will gain a licence of some description. It's not about getting them solo as soon as possible.
If one also remembers that hitting the ground is THE number 1 killer in aviation and loss of control following an engine failure the biggest of that group then I find it irresponsible to send any one solo who is unable to cope with anything that may happen in the circuit.
The items mentioned by BigEndBob in 13E should cover most of it.
Do remember that the aim of the game is training a competent pilot who will gain a licence of some description. It's not about getting them solo as soon as possible.
If one also remembers that hitting the ground is THE number 1 killer in aviation and loss of control following an engine failure the biggest of that group then I find it irresponsible to send any one solo who is unable to cope with anything that may happen in the circuit.
The items mentioned by BigEndBob in 13E should cover most of it.
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Culpability
A few months ago I was asked to assess a young pilot to see if she was about ready to go solo.
Whilst downwind I asked her what she would if she found the airfield had to close due to an accident or incident. Where would she go and roughly which way was it. She correctly identified the obvious nearby huge military airfield as her alternate unfortunately however.....
....she had no knowledge of the procedures or R/T involved in getting there, did not know how to use any of the navaids in the aircraft so even though she had a serviceable ADF, VOR and DME she could not use them to get to the airfield which has all of these facilities and just to put the icing on the cake she did not even have a map with her as no one had told her that she needed one!
Funnily enough I didn't send her solo even though she was clearly an able pair of hands. This was completely not her fault but the fault of those who believe that "stuff like that can wait until later" (Head of Training) Whilst I agree with the views above that you cannot teach everything before solo sending someone unarmed into an environment as unforgiving as aviation is tantamount to causing the accident yourself it is only by luck that that those not properly prepared come back and eventually, statistically that luck will run out for someones student somewhere. I doubt at that time of the inquest I thought that stuff like that could wait until later will be of little comfort for their kin.
Not withstanding the above not sure how you can in good conscience send someone solo who has never at least once demonstrated a flapless and especially a glide landing. Do you really think they have a chance if they have never even tried one just because they saw a demo! Really well lucky you I assume you instruct at Linton in the Tucano cos most PPL students dont get it right after hours of doing just glides or just flapless.
VT
Whilst downwind I asked her what she would if she found the airfield had to close due to an accident or incident. Where would she go and roughly which way was it. She correctly identified the obvious nearby huge military airfield as her alternate unfortunately however.....
....she had no knowledge of the procedures or R/T involved in getting there, did not know how to use any of the navaids in the aircraft so even though she had a serviceable ADF, VOR and DME she could not use them to get to the airfield which has all of these facilities and just to put the icing on the cake she did not even have a map with her as no one had told her that she needed one!
Funnily enough I didn't send her solo even though she was clearly an able pair of hands. This was completely not her fault but the fault of those who believe that "stuff like that can wait until later" (Head of Training) Whilst I agree with the views above that you cannot teach everything before solo sending someone unarmed into an environment as unforgiving as aviation is tantamount to causing the accident yourself it is only by luck that that those not properly prepared come back and eventually, statistically that luck will run out for someones student somewhere. I doubt at that time of the inquest I thought that stuff like that could wait until later will be of little comfort for their kin.
Not withstanding the above not sure how you can in good conscience send someone solo who has never at least once demonstrated a flapless and especially a glide landing. Do you really think they have a chance if they have never even tried one just because they saw a demo! Really well lucky you I assume you instruct at Linton in the Tucano cos most PPL students dont get it right after hours of doing just glides or just flapless.
VT
Last edited by Vortex Thing; 13th Nov 2008 at 23:47. Reason: typo