How would you demonstrate the secondary affects of roll?
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Why discuss aerodynamic details?
all we are trying to achieve is a student who can recognize the need to maintain balanced flight.
That is the problem, we spend time just showing them how to recognize a problem and not the why it happens. Instead we give scenario after scenario in an attempt to prepare our students for everything, but still no why.
If you take the time to teach the student the finer points of aerodynamics and why the aircraft flies certain ways and can't fly other ways. If you don't see this as an issue go look at how many accident reports happen from cross controlled stalls on landings. If those pilots knew why their aircraft flew they would know why it cannot fly in that fashion.
So we are arguing aerodynamics in the finer points and aspects because a thorough understanding of these principles can save your life.
Good answer?
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So are you advocating a thorough lesson in aerodynamics before the first instructional flight?
PS. I take issue with your statement:
I have flown a number of types (and indeed teach on a type) where that is simply not the case.
PS. I take issue with your statement:
If you want proof go turn your ailerons to full deflection in either direction, note the aileron deflects up more than down (you will understand why soon).
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First,
This is not the case on some aircraft I believe before the 70s but I do not hold me to that one I would have to look that up. But newer aircraft, all new Cessna and new pipers use enough for it to be visible to the naked eye. Some older models may have a small degree of difference but it might go unnoticed if not measured.
EDIT: I direct you here: Adverse yaw - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia for further information on differential ailerons.
On the other note, I am advocating that as you go through the lessons you introduce pertinent aerodynamic principles on the ground that occurs in the maneuver. When you teach a stall spend 30 minutes on the ground explaining how it is happening and why. Same with weight and balance and talks of CG you can bring up the model from my original post. Simply broaden your student’s horizon for each beginning lesson, that way they truly understand their aircraft.
I have flown a number of types (and indeed teach on a type) where that is simply not the case.
This is not the case on some aircraft I believe before the 70s but I do not hold me to that one I would have to look that up. But newer aircraft, all new Cessna and new pipers use enough for it to be visible to the naked eye. Some older models may have a small degree of difference but it might go unnoticed if not measured.
EDIT: I direct you here: Adverse yaw - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia for further information on differential ailerons.
On the other note, I am advocating that as you go through the lessons you introduce pertinent aerodynamic principles on the ground that occurs in the maneuver. When you teach a stall spend 30 minutes on the ground explaining how it is happening and why. Same with weight and balance and talks of CG you can bring up the model from my original post. Simply broaden your student’s horizon for each beginning lesson, that way they truly understand their aircraft.
Hmm, in an earlier thread (steep turns) we had JulieFlyGal paired with Pugilistic Animus, now we have JulieFlyGal paired with a new member called shdw, who has similar characteristics to PA. I don't really care but I do (slightly) wonder why people play these games.
Ah well, back to the real world: teach what the stude needs to know to be safe, and follow the KISS principle
HFD
(edited to fix typo)
Ah well, back to the real world: teach what the stude needs to know to be safe, and follow the KISS principle
HFD
(edited to fix typo)
Last edited by hugh flung_dung; 12th Mar 2009 at 08:43.
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we had JulieFlyGal paired with Pugilistic Animus
Well I went back to see who this person was, but I don't even see posts. Sorry if I my beliefs match someone else’s, they should, they are right.
Anyways who I am isn't the point; the point is there are even instructors that are lost when it comes to even basic aerodynamics. You would think something as simple as basic aerodynamics topics like controling coupling effects should be understood by every instructor and every instructor should teach it accordingly and properly to their students.
I would be please if you could show me something that I said that was wrong in my post because if there is something I sure would like to know. Like many others here I am nothing more than an instructor trying to pass on knowledge and pick up what knowledge I can when I can. On one last note, I only came on here to post because I couldn't find a single message on here explaining these effects properly and I believed that should be fixed.
Last edited by shdw; 12th Mar 2009 at 04:40.
Hmm, in an earlier thread (steep turns) we had JulieFlyGal paired with Pugilistic Animus, now we have JulieFlyGal paired with a new member called shdw, who has similar characteristics to PA. I don't really care but I do (slightly) wonder why people play these games.
just to add you don't need much theory 'stick and rudder, the FAA airplane flying handbook and FAA pilot''s handbook of aeronautical knowledge is fine....So make false accusation somewhere else
edit: you talk a lot of horse SH
IT!!!Lester
Unless you yourself can come up with a few solutions to the Karman T'sien integral
Ah well, back to the real world: teach what the stude needs to know to be safe, and follow the KISS
Last edited by Pugilistic Animus; 12th Mar 2009 at 17:25.
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FAA airplane flying handbook and FAA pilot''s handbook of aeronautical knowledge is fine
No offense Lurking, just trying to make an example.
I have flown a number of types (and indeed teach on a type) where that is simply not the case.
If there are instructors out there without this sort of knowledge of their aircraft, a basic effect that causes serious issues than I don't think that basic knowledge is enough.
I was originally going to tell you all these great reasons why this knowledge is priceless to any student, and then I realized I have a story that might prove more beneficial. This actually happened to me today in a Cessna 152 with a student post-solo going on our second cross country. He hasn't had my aerodynamic lessons (I give them on those lessons after solo x-country before private).
So we lift off runway 10 with wind about 10 knots x-wind gusting in the teens. About 200 feet off the ground we hit a crossing section of air that yawed the aircraft about 60 degrees and slowed our airspeed to just under 60 knots (well above stall but dropping fast) in about 4 to 5 seconds. My student, like many in a situation like this completely froze with an aircraft rapidly slowing in a sharp yawing motion to the left 200 feet AGL. After seeing airspeed drop below 55 now with him frozen and now just saying Brian...Brian (noticably scared by this unusual attitude), at that point I took the aircraft stomped on the right rudder and dropped the nose 15-20 degrees. It took full right rudder to stop the rotation and had a situation like this not been dealt with promptly you would have been reading about it on the news and not on these forums.
On a side note, to anyone who just read that, if you thought right aileron + nose down would work you might have been on the news too. Applying right aileron before pushing the nose down would have drastically increased the angle of attack of the lower (left) wing which would have likely stalled that wing and inevitably put you in a spin.
Anyways that is my two cents, I thank my college for giving me a full aerobatics and advanced aerodynamics class (second semester right after you get your license). I don't know how I would have reacted to that if I hadn't had extensive spin/aerobatic training.
Thanks again for dealing with my ratings(EDIT: raNtings)!
Lurkin - damn smart a** lol
~Brian
Last edited by shdw; 13th Mar 2009 at 14:33.
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Pitch is the secondary effect of aileron
Many of the old military instructors, of which I am one, will disagree with me because it has been drummed into us for years that the secondary effect of aileron is yaw. Ignore adverse aileron yaw for now as we all know what causes that. During S&L, apply left aileron with the feet off the rudders. The aircraft rolls to the left and then PITCHES down. How do we correct it? Obviously with elevator.
If the secondary effect was a yaw to the left, we would then be compelled to correct it by applying right rudder. This is clearly not the case.
If one applies left aileron and then observes the ball, one would notice that it hangs slightly into the turn thereby requiring a little left rudder to centre it. Therefore, it a left hand turn, one applies left aileron, left rudder and up elevator as we all know.
Why do we have to keep telling students that the secondary effect aileron is yaw but it needs to be corrected with elevator? No wonder the cadets, and instructors, are confused.
If the secondary effect was a yaw to the left, we would then be compelled to correct it by applying right rudder. This is clearly not the case.
If one applies left aileron and then observes the ball, one would notice that it hangs slightly into the turn thereby requiring a little left rudder to centre it. Therefore, it a left hand turn, one applies left aileron, left rudder and up elevator as we all know.
Why do we have to keep telling students that the secondary effect aileron is yaw but it needs to be corrected with elevator? No wonder the cadets, and instructors, are confused.
