engine failure
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: XXX
Age: 38
Posts: 161
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Last edited by VNA Lotus; 22nd Jun 2010 at 09:47.
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: flyover country USA
Age: 82
Posts: 4,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OK, now that you are more specific, I won't disagree with this procedure - but remember that this "procedure" must evolve to a technique when wind, excess runway, etc. are taken into consideration.
When I was in university we had spot-landing contests based on this. I never won, but then I always planned in a genuine engine failure to carry excess potential & kinetic energy, then slip down to the desired touchdown point.
And my father - who had practiced forced landings since the 30s, when they were an accepted part of flying - at age 92 was confronted with carburetor ice and made a very uneventful landing.
When I was in university we had spot-landing contests based on this. I never won, but then I always planned in a genuine engine failure to carry excess potential & kinetic energy, then slip down to the desired touchdown point.
And my father - who had practiced forced landings since the 30s, when they were an accepted part of flying - at age 92 was confronted with carburetor ice and made a very uneventful landing.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Germany
Posts: 407
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
holy cow that looks complicated ... but it just may be that i don't know one word french :P
When i taught my students (in the US) i'd give them lots of practice and just work off the 'feel' method. Give them basic guidelines as to when to turn and just let them try until they get it. ALthough i can see that racking up costs in the EU with all those landing fees.
Generally it comes down to letting them know to always turn early on downwind, usually after passing the end of the runway and 1/2mile lateral distance. While turning keep the turn at such a rate that the wingtip is touching the end of the runway (roughly 25degrees?) - while keeping the speed ad the recommended glidespeed. Assess what the wind is doing to you on base (how fast you're getting pushed, so you can decide when to turn to the numbers). Once decision is made to turn to numbers/runway make corrections for altitude by using a multitude of methods - flaps + forward slip for drag, or adjustand ground track to runway, if those don't deliver the desired results you can "dive" for a point before the runway/desired touch down point. This increases speed but also drag which will make you lose energy so when you level out again your at a lower altitude with less energy.
Reason i teach to always turn early is 'cause you can always correct for being to high, but never for being to low. I used the same method to teach Power off 180's where u have to hit a 100ft target (dunno if you guys do that in the EU?). It worked for all my students quite well and not one of them ever failed a stagecheck/checkride.
When i taught my students (in the US) i'd give them lots of practice and just work off the 'feel' method. Give them basic guidelines as to when to turn and just let them try until they get it. ALthough i can see that racking up costs in the EU with all those landing fees.
Generally it comes down to letting them know to always turn early on downwind, usually after passing the end of the runway and 1/2mile lateral distance. While turning keep the turn at such a rate that the wingtip is touching the end of the runway (roughly 25degrees?) - while keeping the speed ad the recommended glidespeed. Assess what the wind is doing to you on base (how fast you're getting pushed, so you can decide when to turn to the numbers). Once decision is made to turn to numbers/runway make corrections for altitude by using a multitude of methods - flaps + forward slip for drag, or adjustand ground track to runway, if those don't deliver the desired results you can "dive" for a point before the runway/desired touch down point. This increases speed but also drag which will make you lose energy so when you level out again your at a lower altitude with less energy.
Reason i teach to always turn early is 'cause you can always correct for being to high, but never for being to low. I used the same method to teach Power off 180's where u have to hit a 100ft target (dunno if you guys do that in the EU?). It worked for all my students quite well and not one of them ever failed a stagecheck/checkride.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Belgium
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
from the point where the enine fails, circle/glide towards your intended landing spot and aim to get the aircraft abeam that spot, in landing direction at 2000ftAGL, turn left on a Xwind leg aiming to turn on a downwind leg at 1500ftAGL, turn base 1000ftAGL, judge distance and altitude from the landing spot and decide on continuing the base when OK, turning direct towards the landing spot when low, flying a dogleg or sideslipping when high....
All altitudes are valid in zero wind conditions only.
All altitudes are valid in zero wind conditions only.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: The wx is here, I wish u were beautiful
Posts: 155
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That sounds a little complicated. If you're 2000 feet over your landing spot in real life, you'll just spiral and land.
I always taught it in progressive steps, and mostly off-airport, without landings so there's no fees and no traffic. First step is a demo on one of the first lessons: yes the airplane will fly if you trim for Vg. I've even done it on "discovery flights" for those prospective students who pop the "what happens if that big fan out front stops turning?" question.
I always include it as an element in the ground reference maneuvers. You're teaching them to judge the effects of the wind and fly the airplane to compensate. They should be able to do it even if the prop is at idle. And that last 1000 feet between the airplane and the terrain is what counts. Anything higher, and you're really working on "picking a suitable spot" and procedures with no time pressure, not dead-stick landing.
That way, nobody is surprised when you pull the throttle back in the pattern. Should always be a normal downwind altitude and distance from the field. Have them shorten the leg and fly a normal base profile, just a little bit closer in. How much do you shorten? Depends on the wind. Tailwind or a xwind blowing you away from the field, shorten a lot.
The only ones I ever try and teach "turn-in abeam your spot" are the CP students, as most training retracts begin sinking like rocks with the feet out and no power on. And face it, that's for checkride and spot landing purposes. Most of them would never make the runway at a normal pattern altitude and distance if you had an engine out on downwind.
I always taught it in progressive steps, and mostly off-airport, without landings so there's no fees and no traffic. First step is a demo on one of the first lessons: yes the airplane will fly if you trim for Vg. I've even done it on "discovery flights" for those prospective students who pop the "what happens if that big fan out front stops turning?" question.
I always include it as an element in the ground reference maneuvers. You're teaching them to judge the effects of the wind and fly the airplane to compensate. They should be able to do it even if the prop is at idle. And that last 1000 feet between the airplane and the terrain is what counts. Anything higher, and you're really working on "picking a suitable spot" and procedures with no time pressure, not dead-stick landing.
That way, nobody is surprised when you pull the throttle back in the pattern. Should always be a normal downwind altitude and distance from the field. Have them shorten the leg and fly a normal base profile, just a little bit closer in. How much do you shorten? Depends on the wind. Tailwind or a xwind blowing you away from the field, shorten a lot.
The only ones I ever try and teach "turn-in abeam your spot" are the CP students, as most training retracts begin sinking like rocks with the feet out and no power on. And face it, that's for checkride and spot landing purposes. Most of them would never make the runway at a normal pattern altitude and distance if you had an engine out on downwind.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Fareham
Posts: 194
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I always love to read this stuff as all the training is done on the basis that the engine will fail somewhere 'convenient'. It doesn't.
The two occasions the donkey has stopped on me have both been at less than 150 feet (one on finals and one on the go-around from a PFL) in an aircraft with the glide-ratio of a brick. I can assure you that your options are distinctly limited and your response has to be totally reflexive. Nose down to fly, nose up to flare, land (straight ahead). It all takes less than about 10 seconds. No time for any vital actions, checks etc. (though I did get a radio call in on the second one).
If you are already slow on final somewhere near the bottom of the drag curve, the nose has to go down very long way to keep flying which requires a fair bit of confidence at such a low altitude.
A good simple rule of thumb is "if you don't stall you won't die".
I was lucky enough on both occasions that there was clear ground under me and I was able to fly the plane away again later in the day.
Partial engine failures and rough running are another interesting situation seldom taught or thought about.
Teach your students to expect the unexpected.
The two occasions the donkey has stopped on me have both been at less than 150 feet (one on finals and one on the go-around from a PFL) in an aircraft with the glide-ratio of a brick. I can assure you that your options are distinctly limited and your response has to be totally reflexive. Nose down to fly, nose up to flare, land (straight ahead). It all takes less than about 10 seconds. No time for any vital actions, checks etc. (though I did get a radio call in on the second one).
If you are already slow on final somewhere near the bottom of the drag curve, the nose has to go down very long way to keep flying which requires a fair bit of confidence at such a low altitude.
A good simple rule of thumb is "if you don't stall you won't die".
I was lucky enough on both occasions that there was clear ground under me and I was able to fly the plane away again later in the day.
Partial engine failures and rough running are another interesting situation seldom taught or thought about.
Teach your students to expect the unexpected.
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Neither Here Nor There
Posts: 1,121
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Less than 150ft on a go-around from a PFL? Interesting...
Whilst this may not be an approved method, the one thing I find with PFL training is that there is a tendency to panic over doing the drills so for the first demo (on the way home from an unrelated lesson) I get the student to relax and start the stopwatch when the engine 'fails' at 2,000' AGL. Trim the a/c for Vg and simply time it down to the ground (or as near as). Then, in the safety of terra firma, go through the drills in the cockpit at an easy pace and time them. I find it helps to build confidence when they see that there is sufficient time to carry out the drills in the air.
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 3,218
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My last engine failure occured in a single engine airplane at 150' in a canyon. I jettisoned my load, made a 90 degree turn, and hit the hillside.
So much for alpha this and alpha that.
Procedures like those are really spiffy if you happen to have an engine failure with altitude above a runway...but it usually doesn't happen like that in the real world.
Procedure? Yes. Fly the airplane until it stops moving, then get out and look for the fire.
So much for alpha this and alpha that.
Procedures like those are really spiffy if you happen to have an engine failure with altitude above a runway...but it usually doesn't happen like that in the real world.
Procedure? Yes. Fly the airplane until it stops moving, then get out and look for the fire.
