Passengers while instructing
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Passengers while instructing
I remember that recently (within the last few months) one of the many circulars I got through the post told me that the CAA had clarified the position regarding passengers being carried on training flights.
The circular went in the bin and I now can't find any reference. I've an idea that the circular was a trainingcom but the memory's never been much good.
My current employer has a policy of allowing any passengers on trial lesson flights and, for other training flights only if the passenger is a student pilot at a similar stage of training to the student in the front. They believe that it would be illegal to carry passengers outside of these circumstances.
I know full well that there's nothing in law preventing me carrying a passenger while instructing so long as they're not charged for it but it'd be useful to have some formal clarification of this to point my employer too.
Can anyone remember point me to the reference? I'm sure I didn't imagine it.
The circular went in the bin and I now can't find any reference. I've an idea that the circular was a trainingcom but the memory's never been much good.
My current employer has a policy of allowing any passengers on trial lesson flights and, for other training flights only if the passenger is a student pilot at a similar stage of training to the student in the front. They believe that it would be illegal to carry passengers outside of these circumstances.
I know full well that there's nothing in law preventing me carrying a passenger while instructing so long as they're not charged for it but it'd be useful to have some formal clarification of this to point my employer too.
Can anyone remember point me to the reference? I'm sure I didn't imagine it.
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I can't find it in the trainingcomms, FYI they can all be found here:-
List of TrainingComm | Publications | CAA
List of TrainingComm | Publications | CAA
I think that this may be the document you are looking for:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/1196/20071...PRCampaign.pdf
Beware its not entirely accurate!
But if you do hold an AOC you can't conduct lessons on an AOC flight!!
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/1196/20071...PRCampaign.pdf
Beware its not entirely accurate!
I have been offered a flight as a passenger during a trial lesson. Is this legal?
There is nothing in law to prevent the carriage of non-paying passengers on an instructional flight, apart, of course, from solo flights by a student pilot. If the only payment made is for carriage of the trainee pilot under instruction, the flight is classed as aerial work, and no AOC is needed. However, if any passenger has paid to be carried, the flight is classed as public transport, and is illegal unless the operator holds an AOC.
There is nothing in law to prevent the carriage of non-paying passengers on an instructional flight, apart, of course, from solo flights by a student pilot. If the only payment made is for carriage of the trainee pilot under instruction, the flight is classed as aerial work, and no AOC is needed. However, if any passenger has paid to be carried, the flight is classed as public transport, and is illegal unless the operator holds an AOC.
It seems to hinge on the student paying for the flight but here is another question.
In the FTO I am associated with it has been suggested that if a passenger wanted to come along there would be an additional charge (dont ask me why?!) - does this matter so long as the entire trial lesson is paid for by the student?
Would appreciate any comments
In the FTO I am associated with it has been suggested that if a passenger wanted to come along there would be an additional charge (dont ask me why?!) - does this matter so long as the entire trial lesson is paid for by the student?
Would appreciate any comments
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So do you mean for instance, that say you and your student go for a one hour lesson in a C172, your FTO will charge £170, but if you take another person in the back they will charge £180, all of which is paid by your student, nothing being paid by the person in the back?
So do you mean for instance, that say you and your student go for a one hour lesson in a C172, your FTO will charge £170, but if you take another person in the back they will charge £180, all of which is paid by your student, nothing being paid by the person in the back?
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bob
Well, that's quite an interesting proposition, isn't it? There are undoubtedly benefits to be had for students, by doubling-up on lessons and going in the back on other people's flights. However, that's not the issue is it, I would say that as long as the third person in the back makes no additional payment to be there, then it's legal, but I'm sure you'll get some more expert opinions than mine shortly. That still leaves you with the business problem of convincing your customers that you're not ripping them off though. By the way, if you end up with two students in the aircraft and the FTO is charging more for that, do they plan to pay you any extra?
Well, that's quite an interesting proposition, isn't it? There are undoubtedly benefits to be had for students, by doubling-up on lessons and going in the back on other people's flights. However, that's not the issue is it, I would say that as long as the third person in the back makes no additional payment to be there, then it's legal, but I'm sure you'll get some more expert opinions than mine shortly. That still leaves you with the business problem of convincing your customers that you're not ripping them off though. By the way, if you end up with two students in the aircraft and the FTO is charging more for that, do they plan to pay you any extra?
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fireflybob,
Be very careful with your wording and the use of "passengers". You cannot take up a passenger unless the establishment holds an AoC (Air Operators Certificate). If one is in place then this can be deemed a passenger carrying service.
If it is a training flight, the pliot in command/instructor can allow "observers" to sit in the back. This subject to the usual weight and balance restrictions and at the discretion of the pilot in command. They are there merely to observe the person in the front enjoying their training flight (and hopefully get something out of it as well).
I would question any flight school who try to put a surcharge on taking observers along. It just takes the p**s a bit.
Be very careful with your wording and the use of "passengers". You cannot take up a passenger unless the establishment holds an AoC (Air Operators Certificate). If one is in place then this can be deemed a passenger carrying service.
If it is a training flight, the pliot in command/instructor can allow "observers" to sit in the back. This subject to the usual weight and balance restrictions and at the discretion of the pilot in command. They are there merely to observe the person in the front enjoying their training flight (and hopefully get something out of it as well).
I would question any flight school who try to put a surcharge on taking observers along. It just takes the p**s a bit.
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So do you mean for instance, that say you and your student go for a one hour lesson in a C172, your FTO will charge £170, but if you take another person in the back they will charge £180, all of which is paid by your student, nothing being paid by the person in the back?
, but probably just the right side of legal, as long as the extra payment isn't paid for by the extra person, as you put it.
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Interesting point - who pays? Possibly one where a very cunning lawyer could get a case won, but the school concerned would then find themselves being audited awfully often. Especially under the new EASA ATO/FTO proposals - unannounced audits etc!
Is My Flight Legal?
PD210, it wasn't my idea to use the word "passenger" but that's the word the CAA use in the above link!!
PD210, it wasn't my idea to use the word "passenger" but that's the word the CAA use in the above link!!
What does the insurance policy say?
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fireflybob,
Well I am shocked and I guess I stand corrected. Although sometimes I am always a little sceptical with what the CAA write down as they often don't seem to know themselves.
Well I am shocked and I guess I stand corrected. Although sometimes I am always a little sceptical with what the CAA write down as they often don't seem to know themselves.
Although sometimes I am always a little sceptical with what the CAA write down as they often don't seem to know themselves.
it wasn't my idea to use the word "passenger" but that's the word the CAA use in the above link!!
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Passengers on training flights are sometimes welcome, especially when trying to learn the student the effect additional weight and C.G. shift has on aircraft's flying ability (while remaining withing limits of course) or to check if student is able to do a passenger briefing (emergencies, evacuation, sick bags, use of seatbelts, maintaining "sterile" cockpit when in traffic pattern due to ATC, etc.). All good and well, as long as passengers aren't paying for flight.
On another topic (not so far away), is person with pilot's license (and rating, medical, etc.) occupying a pilot's seat in a single-pilot aircraft legally a passenger or a pilot? For example, if you don't have 3 landings in the last 90 days, can you take a friend pilot (which is current for carrying passengers) with you or do you have to do the remaining landings alone/with another FI?
On another topic (not so far away), is person with pilot's license (and rating, medical, etc.) occupying a pilot's seat in a single-pilot aircraft legally a passenger or a pilot? For example, if you don't have 3 landings in the last 90 days, can you take a friend pilot (which is current for carrying passengers) with you or do you have to do the remaining landings alone/with another FI?
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Originally Posted by FlyingStone
if you don't have 3 landings in the last 90 days, can you take a friend pilot (which is current for carrying passengers) with you or do you have to do the remaining landings alone/with another FI?
In the case you mention the licence holder does not have the required privileges to carry a passenger (who just happens to incidentally be a friend and pilot who is current for carrying passengers, but not an instructor).
The licence holder must complete the remaining landings as the sole manipulator of the controls either alone (PIC) or with a required crew member eg. an instructor on a training flight (in which case the licence holder would be PUT), or an examiner on a flight test (in which case the licence holder could be PICUS or PUT).
Much easier for the individual to go and frighten him/herself alone and be done with it...
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The licence holder must complete the remaining landings as the sole manipulator of the controls either alone (PIC) or with a required crew member eg. an instructor on a training flight (in which case the licence holder would be PUT), or an examiner on a flight test (in which case the licence holder could be PICUS or PUT).
There is no link between being pilot in command and being the sole manipulator of the controls (except on a solo flight).
I know 3 or 4 people who have made at least 3 take-off and landings as sole manipulator of the controls in the past 90 days but none of them hold a pilot licence, a medical and none of them were flying with an instructor but in all cases there was at least 1 passenger in the aircraft - it was the passenger (or one of them) that was manipulating the controls.
The PIC has to have the required number of landings recorded in the past 90 days. The person doing the flying and doing the take-off and landings does not need to have any experience.
Therefore the above quote misses the fact that a person who does not have enough landings in the past 90 days can fly as a passenger with a current PIC and while doing so perform the required number of take-offs and landings as sole manipulator of the controls.
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But if you do hold an AOC you can't conduct lessons on an AOC flight!!
Taking the multi crew example, both pilots have to be rated i.e. have the raying in their licence.
However, it is normal practice for line training to be completed with passengers aboard.
More importantly, if a crewmember does not have 3 take-off and landings in the past 90 days they can fly in the period between 90 and 120 days with a TRI/TRE and passengers on board.
Single crew operators will have similar and aside from base checks you will not flind many training flights that do not have passengers on board (unless business is poor).