ATPL advantage or not for FI?

[AlphaMale]

Hi guys,

Been adding up the pros and cons and desperately want a job in aviation, although like many others my ultimate goal is flying for a TP/Jet Operator, I'd happily work the rest of my life as a flying instructor providing the pay was able to support a family (albeit CPL/IR Instructor).

I've not given this route a thought in the past due to everybody saying get the ATPL GS done first as last. But here goes;

• PPL (Oct/Nov 08).
• Hour building while studying CPL theory.
• When 150hrs TT is achieved look to combine my CPL and FI with the same school in a quest to work at that school. As an example I have Cardiff on my doorstep or Aeros at just over an hours drive away.

So I guess on finishing my FI I'll have my CPL and just over 200hrs TT?

The question is from your experience is this a viable option and would I be at any disadvantage in not having done my ATPL exams?

I would of course look to complete my ATPL exams over 18 months (having a head start with my CPL theory fresh in my head) while working as an FI and then carry out my IR (with the school I work for no doubt). By the time I'll be sitting my MEIR I'll have 1,000+ hrs of instructing under my belt, should I decide to apply to the TP operators I'll be fresh from my IR and enough experience to put me ahead of others when it comes to the sim test?

Main reason I am asking is that becoming an instructor might happen a lot quicker if I take this route (maybe 6 to 12 months sooner).

And the way I see it, the school I work for knows I can't run off to the airlines at a drop of a hat as I don't have the ATPL GS/MEP/IR/MCC.

Thanks

[lady in red]

Only problem with that plan is that currently you need 200 hours to start the FI course if you are on a modular route. This may change with the EASA proposals however. The basic theory of doing CPL and FI first and building experience before doing the IR and ATPL exams is a good one, as you rightly suggest. With more experience under your belt the next stage seems easier. I did it that way round myself, but although I have an ATPL, I have never used it because I prefer to be a career instructor. Good luck whichever route you choose.

[AlphaMale]

Of course my other downfall would be not being able to fly in IFR, die to the lack of a IMC/IR. But I'm sure if I did an IMC with the said school for around £2k that might be a better choice than trying to keep my MEP and IR current over maybe a 2 or 3 year period whilst working as a FI.

I'm still not 100% sure on the idea of working for an airline yet. I've heard all sorts of this forum with pros and cons to each job role, with bad management in the airlines forcing awkward rosters maybe I'd never want to run off to work for them? ... on the other hand would I kick myself if I didn't give it a shot?

Only time will tell.

Thanks

[18greens]

I think you are creating an issue that does not exist. I don't understand why you think you do CPL exams then ATPL exams separately. Just do the ATPL exams in the first place then all of the pain is over.(the difference is minimal) You then have a frozen ATPL instead of a CPL and as the years tick by it unfreezes.

(BTW you will get bored with instructing- especially CPL/IR -you never touch the controls, lesson 3 rocks)

[Deano777]

18greens you are wrong.

Your fATPL does not unfreeze as the years tick by at all. To unfreeze your ATPL at the very least you need 500hrs multi crew, this (generally) means a job flying something that has a turbine engine in it and carries a fair few more passengers than 2.
Also (as you may well know) you haven't got a fATPL unless you have an IR anyway, or if I really want to wear my pedant's hat, there is no such license as a fATPL.

D777

[18greens]

OK Deano a bit pedantic but was I right about the main point of the CPL/ATPL exams issue. Yes you are right, it takes a PPl and CPL 1500 hours of flying of which 500 must be multicrew in a qualifying aircraft etc etc. but my main point was AM was setting himself up for more pain than necessary by doing CPL ground exams then doing ATPL ground exams (all the same pain again).

[AlphaMale]

I see where you're both coming from, and I totally agree. If somebody asked me what to do I'd advice them in the same way.

The only reason I thought of this route was to break it up into targets.

Stage 1
PPL + Hour building - This will take over a year and it'll be a pleasure to do if not a little costly.

Stage 2
CPL + FI - This is the first 'risk/gamble'. I'm looking at a £12/£13k gamble in order to get a job as a flying instructor.

Stage 3
Finding the instructor job, and stay there for at least 18/24 months where I can build some hours, make some contacts and really enjoy the hands on flying, sense of achievement and job satisfaction from the day the student has a grin on his/her face on their 1st take off to the day I shake their hand on completing their PPL.

I'll have no time constraints and if I wish to instruct for longer I can. If I had sat the ATPL exams it would be a terrible waste not to get my IR within the 3 years of completing my last exam.

Stage 4
ATPL GS + MEIR + MCC - An expensive stage, but one that could eventually get me my dream job flying a jet (Bizjet/Airline/Cargo) maybe via a TP operator.


.... I guess in my mind I am just trying to justify the costs and lower the risk from one stage to the next.

Stage 1 will be done whether I am a Networks Engineer or looking to go down the Pilot path so I'm not looking to class that as part of the risk, and the hour building won't be just case of burning holes in the sky so that will also be 'pleasure'.

Stage 2's gamble might pay off having looked around at the amount of jobs available and looking at how busy PPL instructors are in the current credit climate.

So my only worry will be 'stage 4' which really is geared toward big jets, and if I don't get the chance with the big birds it won't be wasted when I go back to Stage 3 (Instructor job) where I could always look to teach CPL and IR and earn better money.

So the quote of "Risking £50k Modular / £80k Integrated with no guarantees of a job" no longer seems quite as scary

Thanks guys.

[TelBoy]

I think stage 1 needs to consist of PPL then hour building with ATP ground school (14 subjects) as you cannot get a JAA CPL without a minimum of the CPL ground school (9 subjects). You would also need the CPL subjects to instruct on your PPL. It will take a few months more study at stage 1 to do ATP subjects instead of just CPL and a bit extra cost, but will save you a lot of time and money in the long run.Stage 4 will then be a lot shorter (by probably 9 months!)Just my thoughts any how. Best of luck.

[usedtofly]

Alpha Male.......

I don't want to pi$$ on your fire...... but how the hell do you know you will be happy as a full time instructor??? You don't even have a PPL ferchrissakes!!!

You are in the honeymoon period right now where flying is new, novel and fun.

You will spend a lot (LOT) of money and even more time getting all the tickets you need to become an instructor. Then you have to find a job which will pay you less than ANY other job in the UK.

If you really want to fly for a living then leave out the instructor part and aim for a decent well paid job flying for airlines or corporate. It is a fact that there are many despondent flying instructors out there who would much rather be flying TP or Jet but cannot get out.

On a more practical note, how do you even know you have the attributes (and skill) to be a flying instructor?.

Flying is a lot like the stories and fairy tales we grew up on as children. You have to kiss a lot of frogs before you find a Princess.

I am sure my remarks will have a lot of flak heading in my direction but someone has to tell you the hard facts.........instructing is (generally) very hard work, poorly paid, and only done for very long by those that wish they didn't have to.

Lastly, and I have said this before, the more instructors there are, the less students there will be to teach.

Instructing will give you better handling skills, but will not give you anything useful towards an airline job.

Hard hat strapped on tightly.......

UTF

[AlphaMale]

how the hell do you know you will be happy as a full time instructor??? You don't even have a PPL ferchrissakes!!!

Well ... I don't. But I will asses my situation as well as the credit climate and the general aviation industry. I might struggle with my PPL and take 80hrs to get there, at which point I may decide to stick to Networking as a full time career (£60k+ pa contracting) and fly a LongEZ on the weekends.

What makes a medical student think he/she is cut out to be a doctor? They study for 5 years to become a surgeon keeping in mind they have never had to cut somebody up (at least I hope not) and never had to massage a heart in their bare hands soaked in blood. But people still take on medical degrees?

If you really want to fly for a living then leave out the instructor part and aim for a decent well paid job flying for airlines or corporate.

Might be worth telling all the wannabes in the 'Professional Pilot Training' section of this forum. For some reason they struggle to find a job with 250hrs and a fATPL?

On a more practical note, how do you even know you have the attributes (and skill) to be a flying instructor?.

As above, if it takes a long time to get my PPL and the FI whispers in my ear that a CPL will be a big struggle for me and I should just keep flying as a hobby then I guess I'll need to re-think. If I get my CPL and struggle with the FI course hen that's a pretty sure sign that I'm not cut out to become an instructor.

Instructing is (generally) very hard work, poorly paid, and only done for very long by those that wish they didn't have to.

Really? Are you saying 'lady in red' would rather be in a 737 with Ryanair as opposed to an instructor?

Instructing will give you better handling skills, but will not give you anything useful towards an airline job.

Maybe, so why do instructors stand a better chance with TP Op's than the usual run of the mill fATPL holder?

I know the answer is that the instructor will have 1,000+hrs of instructing with very little/no bad habits. So shorter time as a FO before becoming a skipper on a TP.

Hard hat strapped on tightly.......

I am open to both positive and negative comments

[bluenose81huskys]

used to flyref your comment:
If you really want to fly for a living then leave out the instructor part and aim for a decent well paid job flying for airlines or corporate. It is a fact that there are many despondent flying instructors out there who would much rather be flying TP or Jet but cannot get out.
The airlines can get between £23,000 + £37,000 as Co pilot on a jet

You can make quite a reasonable salary as a CPL/IR instructor - Oxford pay up to £55,000 now and many of the other commercial schools are paying over £40,000 - you just have to put up with a couple of years of low pay before you get there, but isn't that the same in most jobs where you have a period of apprenticeship?

So for what I have noticed they both start off crap yet the FI pays more depending on what Ratings you have i.e IR/ME FI. Unless your an airline captain but thats a different matter and years of experience.

[RTN11]

I believe the regulations may change soon, and you can instruct ppl level with only a ppl yourself, although i'm sure there will be some minimum hours required.

If all you really want is to instruct PPL, this would be a much cheaper option.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/profess...tors-back.html

[Capt Loop]

UTF

You are spot on with your comments.

I know, I instruct.

Regards
Capt Loop

[AlphaMale]

Capt Loop

I presume you come under;

It is a fact that there are many despondent flying instructors out there who would much rather be flying TP or Jet but cannot get out.

and;

Instructing is only done for very long by those that wish they didn't have to.

If so I feel for your students. My driving instructor was a grumpy old guy who had years of experience teaching but in all honesty with his lack of enthusiasm for driving if was a slow and tedious process before I passed. Unlike my motorbike lessons that were conducted my a younger guy who loved instructing and I must say his enthusiasm rubbed off.

You can tell which instructors love their jobs, and when you start getting bored it's time to move on.

[MIKECR]

alphamale,

the plain and simple reason why TP operators prefer 1000 hour flying instructors is because they can promote them quickly to the left hand seat. 'Hands on flying ability' etc has absolutely bugger all to do with it. To fly as a captain on a multicrew aircrcraft you need to have a full ATPL. A requirement of the full atpl is 500 hours Multicrew. TP operators traditionally lose pilots all the time to jet jobs so not surprisingly they have a major probably recruiting and retaining captains. As someone else in this thread stated, teaching PPL's as an FI has diddly squat to do with airline flying.

Your really need to go and do some flying first before you decide a flying career is for you.You might actually hate it!

[AlphaMale]

Mike, I answered my own question in post #10. By the time the TP Operator bonds you on their AC you'll probably unfreeze your fATPL by the start of the 2nd year leaving the airline with a TP pilot with an ATPL and bonded for another 2 years still. All makes sense to me and I'm sure they’d take on anybody with 1,000hrs+ be it from instructing or banner towing.

I have flown by the way, I just don’t have a PPL yet.

[Romeo India Xray]

AM

The ME(IR) is the bit that normally hurts (a LOT). Providing you become an FI, there is a (slightly) softer option which is to complete an IR on SEP aircraft, then it is just 5 hours (provided you are up to steam) on MEP AC to convert that into an ME IR.

I just cant work out why more people dont do it this way.

[AlphaMale]

Are the savings worth it?

SEIR with Aeros for example is £8,350 and the MEIR is £11,250. I know this is simply a brochure price - but I open to suggestions.

I did look to go FAA PPL then FAA IR/CPL and then come back to the UK and convert them in the UK, but the minimum required hours for the FAA CPL is a little too high to make it worthwhile. However the FAA PPL & IR and then converting to JAA CPL & IR back in JAR land does seem like an option.


I'll look into the SEIR > MEIR conversion all the same though

[Romeo India Xray]

Sorry if I might be looking at that trough an optomists glasses. Being long gone out of the UK I can only speak for my local where we have SEIR priced in the same region as the PPL (similar hours, similar aircraft and instructors without delusions of grandeur). Total I think is somewhere in the 5000 GBP region at the moment then about another 1500-1750 GBP to convert to MEIR (Seneca). Then again, would 8000 GBP be in the right region for a UK PPL these days - The joys of living in "rip off Britain"?

Either way, looks like an SEIR-MEIR route here is cheaper than SEIR alone in the UK.

Cant really add anything more from my own experience as I trained quite some time ago, and think any relevance to my experience is long gone

RIX

[FlyingGasMain]

I'd agree with just doing the ATPL studying. The CPL studying is almost as tough so why not do the ATPLs from the start ?

I think there are both cheerful and not so cheerful instructors out there. There's no denying that the pay as a PPL instructor can make for tough living. But the flying is fun, you get to help other people learn to fly and meet a lot of interesting people (students and instructors) along the way. You'll build hours and once you have enough experience you can make the decision to either try for the airline / bizjet route or instruct for the commercial licenses.

Good luck with the career change.