EASA planning to relax CPL requirement for instructors
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Down at the sharp pointy end, where all the weather is made.
Age: 74
Posts: 1,684
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes
on
3 Posts
But I would like to do some of the mentoring as proposed by AOPA UK recently.
I think this is AOPA re-inventing a well-established wheel. The PFA (now LAA) got their mentoring scheme formalised as the Class Rating Instructor. I did this rating when I was still busily employed so that I could do club checkouts and to see if I would be any good as an instructor. The course is 3 hours flying and 25 hours grondschool - easily achievable part-time with a flying instructor-instructor (see the Lady in Red down your way).
It's a good way of getting involved and adding another dimension to your flying.
TheOddOne
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: 1000ft above you, giving you the bird!
Posts: 579
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
mmm think your taking words literally and not getting the point.... common pricing and marketing is not anti competitive and is not geared to price fixing, nor illegal - as currently i dont think you can name one flight school in this country that would be deemed profitable in the eyes of the law - im trying to say that the sooner the whole flight training industry pulls together - the sooner the schools will do better, pay for pilots and aircraft fleets will be radically renewed... etc
Its about schools joining together nationally at every airfield and a single conduit marketing the flight training industry and pointing people towards a web site, for them to find a school nearest to them, and that flying training has a RRP of "x" per hour
Probably lost in translation or Pinot Grigeot......
Its about schools joining together nationally at every airfield and a single conduit marketing the flight training industry and pointing people towards a web site, for them to find a school nearest to them, and that flying training has a RRP of "x" per hour
Probably lost in translation or Pinot Grigeot......
Join Date: May 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 713
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RRP of "x" per hour
As was the case with BA and Virgin. If the OFT were to tke an interest, then a fair few schools might close.
The existing system is not good but it is the best we have. Market forces sorts them out.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't think such collusion would be enforced though because the value of the total business is below the regulatory radar.
I see the point both ways and don't really have a view one way or the other, but one big problem with the UK PPL training business is that a cheaply run operation, using some poorly maintained junk, and employing (or run by) somebody who will turn up 7 days a week even when its OVC002 just in case somebody phones to book a pleasure flight for somebody's birthday, etc (which let's face it describes the majority of the present scene) will always undercut somebody trying to sell a slicker product based around a better organised school, better instructors, better/newer planes.
The only way around this is for the airfield to limit the # of fixed wing training ops to ONE, and make sure that ONE is doing it properly.
Instead, most airfields want to maximise their income (which, in the PPL context, comes mainly from banging endless circuits) and they allow an unlimited # of schools to set up. These regularly exhaust the market potential and go bust, leaving a stench afterwards.
I see the point both ways and don't really have a view one way or the other, but one big problem with the UK PPL training business is that a cheaply run operation, using some poorly maintained junk, and employing (or run by) somebody who will turn up 7 days a week even when its OVC002 just in case somebody phones to book a pleasure flight for somebody's birthday, etc (which let's face it describes the majority of the present scene) will always undercut somebody trying to sell a slicker product based around a better organised school, better instructors, better/newer planes.
The only way around this is for the airfield to limit the # of fixed wing training ops to ONE, and make sure that ONE is doing it properly.
Instead, most airfields want to maximise their income (which, in the PPL context, comes mainly from banging endless circuits) and they allow an unlimited # of schools to set up. These regularly exhaust the market potential and go bust, leaving a stench afterwards.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: 1000ft above you, giving you the bird!
Posts: 579
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ok - last time..........
So i decide to put a strong branding and decent advert in a few broadsheets 3 times a week for 52, coupled with the same ad in a couple of good houshould magazines including FHM , Hello etc - the ad is a website with a national tel number offering PPL, & trial lessons for "X" and both the ad and website looks very slick etc and gives all the blurb and entices you to a career in Aviation.... blah, blah, blah... I can put any price in that advert i like - i can then audit flying clubs based on their equipment, manuals, facilities etc knowing i can give each one in any given county or airfield an average of 500 each per annum....... I can either screw the clubs into the ground or i can pay a full commercial rate that allows the club to upgrade, have decent pilots, decent facilities, blah, blah, blah - which helps in word of mouth marketing, on top.....if the clubs decide they want some of our flying they need to come up to scratch.....
Price fixing is a million miles away from this... and bears no relation im afraid, and being in big companies and tendering for government contracts and winning them
im happy i am versed in the rules......
So i decide to put a strong branding and decent advert in a few broadsheets 3 times a week for 52, coupled with the same ad in a couple of good houshould magazines including FHM , Hello etc - the ad is a website with a national tel number offering PPL, & trial lessons for "X" and both the ad and website looks very slick etc and gives all the blurb and entices you to a career in Aviation.... blah, blah, blah... I can put any price in that advert i like - i can then audit flying clubs based on their equipment, manuals, facilities etc knowing i can give each one in any given county or airfield an average of 500 each per annum....... I can either screw the clubs into the ground or i can pay a full commercial rate that allows the club to upgrade, have decent pilots, decent facilities, blah, blah, blah - which helps in word of mouth marketing, on top.....if the clubs decide they want some of our flying they need to come up to scratch.....
Price fixing is a million miles away from this... and bears no relation im afraid, and being in big companies and tendering for government contracts and winning them
im happy i am versed in the rules......
Join Date: May 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 713
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jet....
Give a real life example of something like this in operation even if it is in another sector.
The ultimate decider as to who is fit to be a training provider is the CAA and they can do nothing to distort competition.
Give a real life example of something like this in operation even if it is in another sector.
The ultimate decider as to who is fit to be a training provider is the CAA and they can do nothing to distort competition.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: 1000ft above you, giving you the bird!
Posts: 579
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i give up............... chris as an x thousand hr driver with lots of instructing and business experience under my belt - im completely au fai with who the CAA are...... im trying to get the point of industry co-ordination across for the benfit of all who seeks to earn a living from it...without you thinking its against the law.....!
lets move on........ its not going to stop the world going around....!!
more important things to discuss like - the totty i saw at popham on Friday.... Ka...ching
lets move on........ its not going to stop the world going around....!!
more important things to discuss like - the totty i saw at popham on Friday.... Ka...ching
Join Date: May 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 713
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As someone who is advising others on what constitutes uncompetitive behaviour I know just how difficult it is. I am also aware that government in bringing in regulations etc has to be careful to not create uncompetitive environments eg by specifiy a particular supplier/ regime.
Recent examples of this have included the Home Sellers packs, energy assessors. The list goes on.
Recent examples of this have included the Home Sellers packs, energy assessors. The list goes on.
Join Date: May 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 713
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jet,
I dont want to labour the point but have you seen this
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7366348.stm
where the OFT say
"This is not about price fixing," an OFT spokeswoman said
"This is about retail price co-ordination, which is also illegal. "We have information that manufacturers and retailers were indirectly exchanging information about future prices."
Now what was the thrust of your proposal? Co-operation on pricing?
There is the augument that the OFT would not bother with flight training as it is relatively small beer in the scheme of things might be true but it still does not top the proposal being illegal.
Where does breaking the rules stop. If you break the rules in one area, what is to stop breaking them elsewhere on safety for example. It becomes a very slippery road.
It is a bit lkike some of the idiots who post here thinking it is acceptable for a candidate to become a professional pilot to play fast and loose with US immigration law because they dont like it.
Maybe then they decide that a company's SOPs can be treated the same way -if I dont like it I dont comply.
I dont want to labour the point but have you seen this
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7366348.stm
where the OFT say
"This is not about price fixing," an OFT spokeswoman said
"This is about retail price co-ordination, which is also illegal. "We have information that manufacturers and retailers were indirectly exchanging information about future prices."
Now what was the thrust of your proposal? Co-operation on pricing?
There is the augument that the OFT would not bother with flight training as it is relatively small beer in the scheme of things might be true but it still does not top the proposal being illegal.
Where does breaking the rules stop. If you break the rules in one area, what is to stop breaking them elsewhere on safety for example. It becomes a very slippery road.
It is a bit lkike some of the idiots who post here thinking it is acceptable for a candidate to become a professional pilot to play fast and loose with US immigration law because they dont like it.
Maybe then they decide that a company's SOPs can be treated the same way -if I dont like it I dont comply.
