Feedback?
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2007
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From: Sussex
Feedback?
If a student asks about their progression having just completed a progress check, what do you tell them? Are you detailed and use examples etc?
Or do you limit what you tell them, i.e the bare minimum?
Or do you limit what you tell them, i.e the bare minimum?
Why do it if it's not fun?
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,782
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From: Bournemouth
Maybe I'm missing something here, but why would you want to hide anything from your student? You should be as frank with them as necessary, the only exception I can think of being where this is going to demoralise them and affect their progress in which case you should counter every negative with a positive.
(One other exception, and that is trial lessons who clearly have no intent of coming back, but ask how well they did because they want to impress family and friends. These students are always excellent!)
Come to think of it, why are you students even asking you about their progression? I discuss my students' progress with them as part of the debrief on every flight, to a greater or lesser extent.
FFF
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(One other exception, and that is trial lessons who clearly have no intent of coming back, but ask how well they did because they want to impress family and friends. These students are always excellent!)
Come to think of it, why are you students even asking you about their progression? I discuss my students' progress with them as part of the debrief on every flight, to a greater or lesser extent.
FFF
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Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 29
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From: Sussex
Sorry, I'm a student and was directing the question at instructors to gain an understanding of what should be the norm. As mine seem to say next to nothing anymore.
The last time I asked, after a pause..OK was the reply (that what is it) even after completing an exercise and asking specific questions just got the same OK. Just got the impression that asking again would be pointless and will just have to gauge for myself the best I can.
The last time I asked, after a pause..OK was the reply (that what is it) even after completing an exercise and asking specific questions just got the same OK. Just got the impression that asking again would be pointless and will just have to gauge for myself the best I can.
Joined: Jan 2005
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From: Hotel this week, hotel next week, home whenever...
I always give feedback to my students. Sometimes the 'Well, how do you think that went?' get's them to pull out the bad bits for themselves.
If I'm debriefing, then it's 'knock-em-down' then 'build-em-up'. Always end with the positives - well not-quite, end with what's next and a thank-you.
If your instructor isn't debriefing - he's not doing his job properly.
DD
If I'm debriefing, then it's 'knock-em-down' then 'build-em-up'. Always end with the positives - well not-quite, end with what's next and a thank-you.
If your instructor isn't debriefing - he's not doing his job properly.
DD
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 39
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From: Belgium
Monkeeey, contact your CFI or Quality manager ASAP. People like that should not be allowed to teach anymore. They are merely acting as passengers and making you pay their rent ! Insist to recieve what you've paid for !
Why do it if it's not fun?
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,782
Likes: 12
From: Bournemouth
Monkeeeey,
I second what Duveldrinker says - based on what you've said, go and find yourself another instructor who cares about your progress. You are the customer, you deserve better!
Duchess driver, not sure that "Always end with the positives" is universally true. I sometimes end on negatives, or emphasise the negatives over the positives, if the student needs to be brought down a peg or two (e.g. thinks they are better than they actually are) or is not putting in the effort. I don't do this regularly, but doing it very occassionally can, with some students (but not all), make them go away and think hard about what their doing, and show big improvements next lesson.
FFF
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I second what Duveldrinker says - based on what you've said, go and find yourself another instructor who cares about your progress. You are the customer, you deserve better!
Duchess driver, not sure that "Always end with the positives" is universally true. I sometimes end on negatives, or emphasise the negatives over the positives, if the student needs to be brought down a peg or two (e.g. thinks they are better than they actually are) or is not putting in the effort. I don't do this regularly, but doing it very occassionally can, with some students (but not all), make them go away and think hard about what their doing, and show big improvements next lesson.
FFF
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,814
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From: Euroland
I always teach that negative comments should be sandwiched between positive ones.
You did xxxx really well. Your use of yyyy was not good and you need to....... but the zzzz was good.
Feedback / debriefing is essential. Get onto the CFI.
Regards,
DFC
You did xxxx really well. Your use of yyyy was not good and you need to....... but the zzzz was good.
Feedback / debriefing is essential. Get onto the CFI.
Regards,
DFC
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,804
Likes: 1
I always used to try and get the student to debrief themselves.
Get them to go through the lesson then move onto any points they have brought up then your negatives if they missed anything then positives. The students tended to be alot more negative than you would be so it was very rare you had anything to say bar positive comments. Most lack of knowledge can be nipped in the bud by home work before next lesson.
Hey it worked for me with my students but every student is different.
I always tried to get them to leave with a smile on thier face if not laughing.
It also was quite good for highlighting a good exercise was more luck than judgment.
Get them to go through the lesson then move onto any points they have brought up then your negatives if they missed anything then positives. The students tended to be alot more negative than you would be so it was very rare you had anything to say bar positive comments. Most lack of knowledge can be nipped in the bud by home work before next lesson.
Hey it worked for me with my students but every student is different.
I always tried to get them to leave with a smile on thier face if not laughing.
It also was quite good for highlighting a good exercise was more luck than judgment.
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 990
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From: heathrow
I always used to try and get the student to debrief themselves.
The important thing is to get the student leaving the de-briefing on a positive note, wanting to progress rather than being reprimanded, humiliated or criticised unfairly, as I have seen instructors do. Ask yourself, how many times in your lifetime do you remember being praised for doing something and how many times do you remember being criticised. It take a wise selfless man to turn a critical debrief into a positive one but those are the type of instructors that students enjoy flying with the most
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 731
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From: Surrey, England
Instructor Student Relationship
Hi Guys,
I'm not an instructor, I'm an old private pilot. Since 1958, I count that I must have flown with about 19 instructors - that I can remember. So I consider myself to be rather a connoiseur of instructors.
The individual relationship between a given flying instructor and a given student is very special. Indeed, I consider the ability to manage this relationship to be really the most crucial element in the instructor's skill-set.
The result is with the same student and in identical circumstances, one good instructor may choose to encourage, while another good instructor, but a person of a different temperament, will be plainly and honestly critical.
However, both will be equally successful (or not as the case may be) with that student on that occasion. It just depends on how those two human beings relate to one another.
Yet, so far as I can see, this relationship seems to receive very little if any attention in the instructor training or selection processes. The result is that some do it well and some do it poorly. Those who do it well are often just taken for granted by their employer and those who do it badly are almost never sorted out by club/FTO proprietors. The ability to manage this relationship gets to be looked upon as 'some kind of black art that some can do and some can not, but what does it matter either way'? Yet it is easy to discern who are the good instructors, who do connect well with their students, as they quickly develop a devoted following among the students.
To be any good, you have to commence by wanting to instruct and thus wanting to enter into and manage this relationship. If you don't really want to instruct, you will never really 'connect' with the student and you will thus never be more than mediocre. Perhaps this is because to acquire this skill requires emotional maturity, something that only comes with time. I find that as a result most career instructors are pretty good, while the 'hours-builders' can be a very mixed bag. Some of these, right from day one, already have an inate emotional maturity perhaps beyond their years, others do not.
So while these little rules of guidance like, 'always finish on a positive note' are a useful starting point for the tyro instructor, I feel that as the instructor builds experience, he/she should not be afraid to depart from these rules and gradually operate on gut feeling. But this takes time to learn.
Broomstick.
I'm not an instructor, I'm an old private pilot. Since 1958, I count that I must have flown with about 19 instructors - that I can remember. So I consider myself to be rather a connoiseur of instructors.
The individual relationship between a given flying instructor and a given student is very special. Indeed, I consider the ability to manage this relationship to be really the most crucial element in the instructor's skill-set.
The result is with the same student and in identical circumstances, one good instructor may choose to encourage, while another good instructor, but a person of a different temperament, will be plainly and honestly critical.
However, both will be equally successful (or not as the case may be) with that student on that occasion. It just depends on how those two human beings relate to one another.
Yet, so far as I can see, this relationship seems to receive very little if any attention in the instructor training or selection processes. The result is that some do it well and some do it poorly. Those who do it well are often just taken for granted by their employer and those who do it badly are almost never sorted out by club/FTO proprietors. The ability to manage this relationship gets to be looked upon as 'some kind of black art that some can do and some can not, but what does it matter either way'? Yet it is easy to discern who are the good instructors, who do connect well with their students, as they quickly develop a devoted following among the students.
To be any good, you have to commence by wanting to instruct and thus wanting to enter into and manage this relationship. If you don't really want to instruct, you will never really 'connect' with the student and you will thus never be more than mediocre. Perhaps this is because to acquire this skill requires emotional maturity, something that only comes with time. I find that as a result most career instructors are pretty good, while the 'hours-builders' can be a very mixed bag. Some of these, right from day one, already have an inate emotional maturity perhaps beyond their years, others do not.
So while these little rules of guidance like, 'always finish on a positive note' are a useful starting point for the tyro instructor, I feel that as the instructor builds experience, he/she should not be afraid to depart from these rules and gradually operate on gut feeling. But this takes time to learn.
Broomstick.
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 339
Likes: 0
From: Derby
A detail or many missed
After each flight, negative, positive and safety points need to be debriefed.
Even after a good flight I end up debriefing on what we did, what was a bit on the poor side, what was very good etc. Always end on a good note!!
If the whole flight was fine and nothing went wrong then the debrief will be shorter.
However a simple OK after every flight sort of shows that this character doesn't care to pick you up on bad points, positive points, safety points.
Suggest you ditch in favour of someone who actually DOES give a damned!
Even after a good flight I end up debriefing on what we did, what was a bit on the poor side, what was very good etc. Always end on a good note!!
If the whole flight was fine and nothing went wrong then the debrief will be shorter.
However a simple OK after every flight sort of shows that this character doesn't care to pick you up on bad points, positive points, safety points.
Suggest you ditch in favour of someone who actually DOES give a damned!
