Landing and flaps.
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Course your not doing anything wrong but you are disgreeing with some of the people on here that believe everything they do and say is the only way to fly an aircraft. Still it keeps me reminded why I never want to get back into PPL flying training again
Initially teaching landings with F2 in a PA28 gives slightly more time to learn the correct hold-off picture and techniques so studes seem to learn faster as a result; it's then an easy step to teach full flap landings. I fail to understand what's wrong with doing this provided that the correct technique is used and that full flap landings are understood as the norm. - can someone enlighten me?
As far as the rest of this goes ... we're trying to teach judgement as well as simple motor skills and how to follow the book; judgement requires knowledge. Whenever possible we're also teaching generic skills, rather than PA28 (or whatever) skills.
Plainly the stude needs to understand that they only have a chance of achieving the POH performance if they use the POH techniques but they also need to know when they might want to deviate from the POH. The effect of flap on roll control is info that they may need in some types (speaking as someone who came to grief many years ago because of this
). They also need to understand inertia and the risks of being fast/slow, or of strong gusts.
BTW, if anybody here hasn't read "think like a bird" yet I strongly recommend that you put it on your Xmas list. It's a great read, especially the parts about short landings!
HFD
As far as the rest of this goes ... we're trying to teach judgement as well as simple motor skills and how to follow the book; judgement requires knowledge. Whenever possible we're also teaching generic skills, rather than PA28 (or whatever) skills.
Plainly the stude needs to understand that they only have a chance of achieving the POH performance if they use the POH techniques but they also need to know when they might want to deviate from the POH. The effect of flap on roll control is info that they may need in some types (speaking as someone who came to grief many years ago because of this
). They also need to understand inertia and the risks of being fast/slow, or of strong gusts.BTW, if anybody here hasn't read "think like a bird" yet I strongly recommend that you put it on your Xmas list. It's a great read, especially the parts about short landings!
HFD
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watch the old 182Q/T with a full flap approach (*30Deg) if you have to go around with less than 1/2 tanks, (i.e low weight), if you have trimmed her for approach (as ya do), she'll try and point the nose to heaven on an upwind full power go around and it requires more than a fair physical push to keep the nose down.
Which is in accordance with only using 2/3 flap, it's still a physical push, but a little less mike tyson if you get my drift
Which is in accordance with only using 2/3 flap, it's still a physical push, but a little less mike tyson if you get my drift
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I was at Coventry one day on finals when I noticed a smashed up C150 short of the threshold. The pilot had just attempted a full flap GA, they took him away in a body bag. He was on a qualifying cross country from Booker.
Teaching GAs is more important than landings but how many instructors place suitable emphasis on this aspect of 12 & 13. I bet if this pilot had been using 20 degree of flap he would be here today.
The wide range of PPL ability coupled with some of the awful standards of PPL training I have witnessed(in 12 flying schools) lead me to belive that the safest option is always the best. I understand why pilots argue for the use of full flap, I use it myself but I would not teach full flap landings as standard in a C150, not that there are that many around anyway!!!!
Teaching GAs is more important than landings but how many instructors place suitable emphasis on this aspect of 12 & 13. I bet if this pilot had been using 20 degree of flap he would be here today.
The wide range of PPL ability coupled with some of the awful standards of PPL training I have witnessed(in 12 flying schools) lead me to belive that the safest option is always the best. I understand why pilots argue for the use of full flap, I use it myself but I would not teach full flap landings as standard in a C150, not that there are that many around anyway!!!!
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Hi
I did my initial training in the mighty PA-28 at Biggin, long runway and so I did most of my early approaches with a flap 2 setting, I felt quite comfortable with this, however I did ask why we didn't train using full flap, the answer I got was something that the last poster eluded to, the fact that most students, in the event of a go-around could forget about the drag flap and end up struggling, especially on a hot day ( I know we don't really get many of them) even in a clean config they tend to climb like a brick and they could run into trouble.
I also agree that perhaps more time should be spent practising Go-Arounds, I got plenty during training, but thats because Biggin tended to be busy with students on the weekend, some of whome forgot to mention that they had finnished their circuits and would, in fact, be landing, slamming on the anchores and then using the whole length to taxi at a fast walking pace...
I did my initial training in the mighty PA-28 at Biggin, long runway and so I did most of my early approaches with a flap 2 setting, I felt quite comfortable with this, however I did ask why we didn't train using full flap, the answer I got was something that the last poster eluded to, the fact that most students, in the event of a go-around could forget about the drag flap and end up struggling, especially on a hot day ( I know we don't really get many of them) even in a clean config they tend to climb like a brick and they could run into trouble.
I also agree that perhaps more time should be spent practising Go-Arounds, I got plenty during training, but thats because Biggin tended to be busy with students on the weekend, some of whome forgot to mention that they had finnished their circuits and would, in fact, be landing, slamming on the anchores and then using the whole length to taxi at a fast walking pace...
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Full flap GA on a C150 is totally different to that on a Pa28 or even a C152, Old 150s (which I learnt on and still did full flap landings) were a real handful - but you were taught to deal with it and IMHO this is how it should be rather than dumbing down the students.
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Thats were we differ you see I would not send a PPL to Coventry to land on the Tarmac(in those days) on a cross country using full flap in a C150. I would feel safer briefing him to use 30 in that situation.(strange airfiled perhaps a touch nervous) I quite agree with full flap in every other a/c that has been mentioned.
I think Cessna must have agreed with me to some extent!
I think Cessna must have agreed with me to some extent!
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The point is not whether you think that landing with 2/3 or full flap is the answer. The point is if that you're working for a flying school (or airline!) you all have to be singing off the same song sheet as instructors or trainers.
My personal opinion is that teaching folk to land with 2/3 flap is not the answer, for all sorts of reasons already set out in previous posts. However, unless I persuade the Boss to change policy, I have to toe the party line. Or start my own flying school.
My personal opinion is that teaching folk to land with 2/3 flap is not the answer, for all sorts of reasons already set out in previous posts. However, unless I persuade the Boss to change policy, I have to toe the party line. Or start my own flying school.
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Or start my own flying school.
Cheers,
TheOddOne
