FI's, Do you think I am carzy?
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FI's, Do you think I am carzy?
I have a mate, a good mate, who lets me fly his 2003 Saratoga, and its bloody nice too. He is just in the process of selling it, to get either a 2007 Saratoga or a 2007 Malibu, scarey.
We are both just PPL no IR or IMC's, I am just coming to the end of my IMC but he is thinking of going for his IR, which he can afford, I can not
I do not really see me using the IR enough to warranty the £££££ to get it, which is why I am hoping the CAA can find agreement with EASA an launch the PPL/IR 'Lite' which would do me a treat.
I pay for fuel, a small part towards insurance and stuff. The GPH for the turbo 'toga is about 15 at 65% power, keeping the TIT down. Where as the Malibu is about 18GPH at 55% power but with a 20knts quicker cruise. So I estimate they will be about the same to fly per hour, excluding any eurocontrol and landing fees.
So here is my question, assuming he gets a Malibu, would I be crazy to pay for an HPA and TR course on it, about £800 at Bournemouth (can you do it???) just to fly the Malibu around in unCAS in IMC?
For the record I am a 150hr PPL with most of that time on complex and turbo aircraft, and spent a few hours in the RHS of a B200, just to 'observe'. I am also an aircraft engineer too (Does that help???)
Thanks all,
We are both just PPL no IR or IMC's, I am just coming to the end of my IMC but he is thinking of going for his IR, which he can afford, I can not
I do not really see me using the IR enough to warranty the £££££ to get it, which is why I am hoping the CAA can find agreement with EASA an launch the PPL/IR 'Lite' which would do me a treat.I pay for fuel, a small part towards insurance and stuff. The GPH for the turbo 'toga is about 15 at 65% power, keeping the TIT down. Where as the Malibu is about 18GPH at 55% power but with a 20knts quicker cruise. So I estimate they will be about the same to fly per hour, excluding any eurocontrol and landing fees.
So here is my question, assuming he gets a Malibu, would I be crazy to pay for an HPA and TR course on it, about £800 at Bournemouth (can you do it???) just to fly the Malibu around in unCAS in IMC?
For the record I am a 150hr PPL with most of that time on complex and turbo aircraft, and spent a few hours in the RHS of a B200, just to 'observe'. I am also an aircraft engineer too (Does that help???)
Thanks all,
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Do the sums on flying either a club aircraft or buying a part share Vs what it will cost you to continue to fly your mates aircraft. From what you have said so far you will still be flying a better aircraft than you would be flying in a club/group at a much higher price but as you have not given enough info you need to do the sums.
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I think you are asking for an incident. Those aircraft are too complex and fast to not have any IR back up.
If he buys a Malibu, get them to throw in the TR for free. This is normal with most deals of this nature.
Engineering helps when it goes wrong to enable you to figure out the best course of action, it won't help you to deal with your emotions at 1500' 3k vis and at 160kts with limited radar cover and unable to climb into safety while you sort it out. If you are fair wx flying....that is different, but why have a machine like that and not be guaranteed of getting to the Channel Islands for lunch.
150hrs should give you a good idea of what flying is all about, but only if it is off ct time on long nav ex's.
At least get an IMC, but an extended one that covers en-route nav with a good school (mini IR).
Don't fly in conditions that will not allow you to see the ground below 1000'/800' AGL. I know the MINIMA allows much less, but if that engine coughs, do you really want to cloud break at 500' agl and find a field....didn't think so.
A twin is different...
If he buys a Malibu, get them to throw in the TR for free. This is normal with most deals of this nature.
Engineering helps when it goes wrong to enable you to figure out the best course of action, it won't help you to deal with your emotions at 1500' 3k vis and at 160kts with limited radar cover and unable to climb into safety while you sort it out. If you are fair wx flying....that is different, but why have a machine like that and not be guaranteed of getting to the Channel Islands for lunch.
150hrs should give you a good idea of what flying is all about, but only if it is off ct time on long nav ex's.
At least get an IMC, but an extended one that covers en-route nav with a good school (mini IR).
Don't fly in conditions that will not allow you to see the ground below 1000'/800' AGL. I know the MINIMA allows much less, but if that engine coughs, do you really want to cloud break at 500' agl and find a field....didn't think so.
A twin is different...
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would I be crazy to pay for an HPA and TR course on it, about £800 at Bournemouth
With the right training, ie. the TR course, if you are comfortable in the Saratoga, I don't see any reason why you couldn't fly the Malibu. The JAA IR of course would be ideal, but at >£10k, 50hrs it's a big hammer to crack this particular nut.
Treat the IMC rating as a firs step, and get a bit more training in IFR. Training is about making you safe and confident, not just ticking licensing boxes. You can elect do do more even if it's not towards a rating. If you are doing the HPA at Bournemouth I guess it's BCFT. They do great IR training, ask them about a few extra hours on their FNPT2 and on the Malibu.
Opinions always differ about the experience level needed to step-up in GA aircraft. I think training and competency are more important that hours.
rgds
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Not sure how you'd go about it, but have the Malibu approved for IR instruction and then find a IR instructor to do the IR in 'your own aircraft'. IR instructor at £50-60 per hour is significantly cheaper than hiring a club complex - then you also get the familiarity with the exact systems you'd be expected to use in anger.
Lucky b*st*rd!
Lucky b*st*rd!
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Thanks all.
We are now looking at, maybe, putting it on the N reg and getting a FAA/IR.
I have only flown complex stuff, Arrow for about 10hrs, then on to the C210 which people thought I was mad in doing but really like the work load and got on well with the aircraft. I do feel at home in the Saratoga, really smooth, new, and loads of kit on it, which I enjoy find out about, but the Malibu makes me think twice, just like the others did when I first thought about flying them.
I know I have a golden opertunity to fly some special kit here, which I have never taken for granted, I always look after the aircraft, making sure it is clean and ready to go for the owner.
When I do got my mits on it then anyone wanting to come and have a go let me know.
Any other opinions still welcomed, both for and against,
Thanks again
We are now looking at, maybe, putting it on the N reg and getting a FAA/IR.
I have only flown complex stuff, Arrow for about 10hrs, then on to the C210 which people thought I was mad in doing but really like the work load and got on well with the aircraft. I do feel at home in the Saratoga, really smooth, new, and loads of kit on it, which I enjoy find out about, but the Malibu makes me think twice, just like the others did when I first thought about flying them.
I know I have a golden opertunity to fly some special kit here, which I have never taken for granted, I always look after the aircraft, making sure it is clean and ready to go for the owner.
When I do got my mits on it then anyone wanting to come and have a go let me know.
Any other opinions still welcomed, both for and against,
Thanks again
I'd have an IMC rating and not bother with the costs of an IR.
With something as reliable and with multi GPS you would not fail to get in anywhere on 99 out of 100 days.
WWW
With something as reliable and with multi GPS you would not fail to get in anywhere on 99 out of 100 days.
WWW
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I'd have an IMC rating and not bother with the costs of an IR.
With something as reliable and with multi GPS you would not fail to get in anywhere on 99 out of 100 days.
WWW
With something as reliable and with multi GPS you would not fail to get in anywhere on 99 out of 100 days.
WWW
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Blimey - what luck, PA46 at C152 price!
Regarding the Malibu or not, what amount of hours do you think you'd be putting on it per year? The Malibu is friendly, but only until it gets nasty. Those that have broke up in the past were flown by 5-600 hr pilots minimum with IR and some ATPLs even. But, they were also flown in IMC and really foul weather at times. The thing with the Malibu is, it's designed to fly HIGH, making good use of its long wings, turbo and pressure cabin, but that also means you need to be able to handle those conditions. Say you fly high on top of weather and your cabin cracks open (it's just a what if scenario), you'll want to get down pretty quick, regardless of those white fluffy things, and you'll want to be really comfortable with handling it in an emergency. The cruise is at 180 kts but Va is only around 130 (memory lapse). If it's an early 46 you may not have speed brakes, also, pressurization comes off the turbo so you need to descend with power on or your face'll turn blue...
It's a sweet handling machine in my opinion, but not to be taken lightly. If I were you and had the opportunity to fly it nearly free of charge I'd get the IR pronto - it's pure life insurance. Mind you, I spent today in a DA40 in IMC with an experienced pilot who would've wrinkled it on his own - and that's an easy plane to fly. There's NO substitiution for repetetive training regardless your experience. Fly it alot and you'll be safe..
Oh, anyone who thinks a 46 is like a 32 with press, think again, it definitely is not.
You lucky S.o.b
Regarding the Malibu or not, what amount of hours do you think you'd be putting on it per year? The Malibu is friendly, but only until it gets nasty. Those that have broke up in the past were flown by 5-600 hr pilots minimum with IR and some ATPLs even. But, they were also flown in IMC and really foul weather at times. The thing with the Malibu is, it's designed to fly HIGH, making good use of its long wings, turbo and pressure cabin, but that also means you need to be able to handle those conditions. Say you fly high on top of weather and your cabin cracks open (it's just a what if scenario), you'll want to get down pretty quick, regardless of those white fluffy things, and you'll want to be really comfortable with handling it in an emergency. The cruise is at 180 kts but Va is only around 130 (memory lapse). If it's an early 46 you may not have speed brakes, also, pressurization comes off the turbo so you need to descend with power on or your face'll turn blue...
It's a sweet handling machine in my opinion, but not to be taken lightly. If I were you and had the opportunity to fly it nearly free of charge I'd get the IR pronto - it's pure life insurance. Mind you, I spent today in a DA40 in IMC with an experienced pilot who would've wrinkled it on his own - and that's an easy plane to fly. There's NO substitiution for repetetive training regardless your experience. Fly it alot and you'll be safe..
Oh, anyone who thinks a 46 is like a 32 with press, think again, it definitely is not.
You lucky S.o.b
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Deice,
I think you are right. The aircraft will be brand new, so it will come woth AB but I think I am just going to fly it VFR for some time and maybe use my IMC after I feel very comfortable with VMC.
I just dont have the cash or the time to get the IR, in one hit. Maybe I will have my IMC and do an IR slow time. I am sure it would be hard to find an IR instructor to fly on it with me, or would an ATPL also need a type rating to teach on it?
I think you are right. The aircraft will be brand new, so it will come woth AB but I think I am just going to fly it VFR for some time and maybe use my IMC after I feel very comfortable with VMC.
I just dont have the cash or the time to get the IR, in one hit. Maybe I will have my IMC and do an IR slow time. I am sure it would be hard to find an IR instructor to fly on it with me, or would an ATPL also need a type rating to teach on it?
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If you think you can handle TAS of 200kts+, including pressurisation etc, with just 150 hours PPL exprience then best of luck to you. Personally I think your nuts.
If you want to do yourself(including the aeroplane) any justice then get an IR. Whats the point in cruising around at 2000ft VFR in an aeroplane like that?? Even an IMC isnt going to get you airways access.
If you want to do yourself(including the aeroplane) any justice then get an IR. Whats the point in cruising around at 2000ft VFR in an aeroplane like that?? Even an IMC isnt going to get you airways access.
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MIKECR, you're echoing what I was trying to get across.
C210H
The Malibu really isn't a VFR airplane. I don't know what the IMC thingy gives you, it's a UK special as far as I know and doesn't have any worth in the rest of the universe. An IR is an IR, especially if you do a JAA compliant version which I would suggest. Ok, so you don't have the dosh to get an IR. Considering how much you're saving by flying your mate's plane, perhaps you could start saving up for the IR by setting aside the difference? No? Ok, still, I think you need to tread carefully. Remember, there are bold pilots and old pilots, but no old bold pilots.
I think the real issue may lay in the fact that you'll be flying an airplane far more capable than your own level of training and experience permits. That is, it'll handle hard IFR. You may just find yourself in situations you have not trained for simply because the AC invites you to do it. It's a fantastic aircraft and highly capable, but it requires an equally capable pilot. I'm not saying you're not, just that you don't have all the cards in the deck just yet.
I've heard ideas from people who want to get jets and cruise around VFR, like ex military Fougas and L-29s and such. I'm always equally surprised by the apparent lack of insight. An IR doen't just give you the capability of flying IFR and in IMC, it also sharpens your precision, gives you procedural thinking, working with checklists in all phases of flight, planning skills, and a whole range of other stuff. Why do you think the PPL is 45 hrs block-to-block and the IR 50 hrs airborne?
It's your decision naturally, and who wouldn't want to fly high performance asap, but some desires are better left alone until the time is right. I believe this may be one of them. I'm just concerned for you, that's all...
C210H
The Malibu really isn't a VFR airplane. I don't know what the IMC thingy gives you, it's a UK special as far as I know and doesn't have any worth in the rest of the universe. An IR is an IR, especially if you do a JAA compliant version which I would suggest. Ok, so you don't have the dosh to get an IR. Considering how much you're saving by flying your mate's plane, perhaps you could start saving up for the IR by setting aside the difference? No? Ok, still, I think you need to tread carefully. Remember, there are bold pilots and old pilots, but no old bold pilots.
I think the real issue may lay in the fact that you'll be flying an airplane far more capable than your own level of training and experience permits. That is, it'll handle hard IFR. You may just find yourself in situations you have not trained for simply because the AC invites you to do it. It's a fantastic aircraft and highly capable, but it requires an equally capable pilot. I'm not saying you're not, just that you don't have all the cards in the deck just yet.
I've heard ideas from people who want to get jets and cruise around VFR, like ex military Fougas and L-29s and such. I'm always equally surprised by the apparent lack of insight. An IR doen't just give you the capability of flying IFR and in IMC, it also sharpens your precision, gives you procedural thinking, working with checklists in all phases of flight, planning skills, and a whole range of other stuff. Why do you think the PPL is 45 hrs block-to-block and the IR 50 hrs airborne?
It's your decision naturally, and who wouldn't want to fly high performance asap, but some desires are better left alone until the time is right. I believe this may be one of them. I'm just concerned for you, that's all...
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Thanks all, I really apreciate all your views.
My friend is in the same boat really, if not worse. he is low hours too and is going for his IR soon. I am going to suggest that he gets another, new, Saratoga, and them steps up to the Malibu from there. That way I can do the same.
It is very difficult for me to say no to flying the Malibu/Matrix but I feel I may have to.
My friend is in the same boat really, if not worse. he is low hours too and is going for his IR soon. I am going to suggest that he gets another, new, Saratoga, and them steps up to the Malibu from there. That way I can do the same.
It is very difficult for me to say no to flying the Malibu/Matrix but I feel I may have to.
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Sorry guys but I really do not accept these holier than thou utterances that that an IR is essential in order to fly a complex turbo Single. I converted on to complex fast twins (starting with a C310) straight from a PA28 warrior with approx 100 hours in my log book and have since part owned half a dozen fast complex turbo singles and twins, all of them flown strictly VFR.
Although I did the IMC rating about twenty years ago I have no interest in IFR flying and simply bimble and pole around the sky at one hundred and fifity to two hundred knots instead of the 100 or so which I used to do in the PA28.
If one learns the aircraft inside out, learns in particular to manage the speed regimes, recognises ones limitations and does not exceed them, then it is a perfectly safe ( ie as safe as any other flying) and viable exercise.
As for whether one is daft spending money flying " an aeroplane like that" around VFR, then I have taken my share of knocks and ridicule over 24 years of flying these machines, and I have been poo pooed no end because I dont and wont fly IFR. All of the naysayers however were very happy to fly ( and take advice) from me.
Like the original poster I have been lucky enought to obtain subsidised flying of some fancy motors which I could never have afforded individually and I wasnt going to let a bunch of purists put me off doing so just because I dont have and dont want an IR!
I say GO FOR IT!!
Although I did the IMC rating about twenty years ago I have no interest in IFR flying and simply bimble and pole around the sky at one hundred and fifity to two hundred knots instead of the 100 or so which I used to do in the PA28.
If one learns the aircraft inside out, learns in particular to manage the speed regimes, recognises ones limitations and does not exceed them, then it is a perfectly safe ( ie as safe as any other flying) and viable exercise.
As for whether one is daft spending money flying " an aeroplane like that" around VFR, then I have taken my share of knocks and ridicule over 24 years of flying these machines, and I have been poo pooed no end because I dont and wont fly IFR. All of the naysayers however were very happy to fly ( and take advice) from me.
Like the original poster I have been lucky enought to obtain subsidised flying of some fancy motors which I could never have afforded individually and I wasnt going to let a bunch of purists put me off doing so just because I dont have and dont want an IR!
I say GO FOR IT!!
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Who said IR was a general requirement for complex singles? I was referring to the Malibu which is designed to fly high and under those conditions. If you think converting to a C310 with 100 hrs of PA28 experience is cool, or smart, then good for you. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone, but then that's me being conservative and careful.
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Ok fbm, personally I would regard transition to a C310 with 100 hrs of cherokee experience a less than careful move so in my view you contradict yourself.
I think you know that IFR is not the same as IMC and the system as such actually gives you a higher degree of safety even in VMC. But the real benefit is in the training as I see it. Sure, you gain experience flying twins and all that, but a PPL is a license to learn, and being taught an additional skill will improve on the one you already have, even if you don't intend to fly in marginal weather, the IR will add to your overall competence in the cockpit. You may then elect to fly circuits in a Cub for the next 20 yrs, that's besides the point.
In this case we're talking about an aircraft designed to fly in the flight levels, in adverse weather and with complex systems aboard. Having a broader set of tools at your disposal will make you better prepared for the unforseen, and you'll be more likely to encounter those situations in an aircraft designed for it. Are you saying you'd fly straight and level all the time if you owned an Extra (perhaps you do already)? Or, would the capability of the aircraft make you push the limits of your training? I think it may be very tempting...
I suppose you take your Lola T70 for shopping runs?
I think you know that IFR is not the same as IMC and the system as such actually gives you a higher degree of safety even in VMC. But the real benefit is in the training as I see it. Sure, you gain experience flying twins and all that, but a PPL is a license to learn, and being taught an additional skill will improve on the one you already have, even if you don't intend to fly in marginal weather, the IR will add to your overall competence in the cockpit. You may then elect to fly circuits in a Cub for the next 20 yrs, that's besides the point.
In this case we're talking about an aircraft designed to fly in the flight levels, in adverse weather and with complex systems aboard. Having a broader set of tools at your disposal will make you better prepared for the unforseen, and you'll be more likely to encounter those situations in an aircraft designed for it. Are you saying you'd fly straight and level all the time if you owned an Extra (perhaps you do already)? Or, would the capability of the aircraft make you push the limits of your training? I think it may be very tempting...
I suppose you take your Lola T70 for shopping runs?