Instruction in Foreign Airspace.
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2002
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From: UK
Instruction in Foreign Airspace.
Questions.
Can you fly from UK to northern France for example, with a student, exercise 18A and have to flight time count towards the issue of the students JAA PPL? Both aerodrome of departure and arrival would be licensed.
ould you hop over to say Calais, do some ILS's and have it count towards the issue of a UK IMC rating?
Can you fly from UK to northern France for example, with a student, exercise 18A and have to flight time count towards the issue of the students JAA PPL? Both aerodrome of departure and arrival would be licensed.
ould you hop over to say Calais, do some ILS's and have it count towards the issue of a UK IMC rating?
Why do it if it's not fun?
Joined: Jul 2001
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From: Bournemouth
As far as I'm aware, yes - but if you're in any doubt, best ask the CAA.
I've taken students to France for IR training, and the CAA have never queried it. However, the CAA staff examiners seem reluctant to take IR candidates there, despite my school trying to convince them to do this for 9 months or so (due to cheaper approach fees, easier to book slots, and no further than some UK test routes from our airport). I'm not sure why this is - perhaps there's a doubt about insurance? I know the CAA staff examiners are very conservative when there's any doubt at all about anything.
I believe that doing navigation training in France is the norm for the clubs based in the Channel Islands.
I would question the usefullness of cross-channel navigation as far as the PPL syllabus is concerned, though - the lack of features means it doesn't really contribute much to Ex 18. On the other hand, if a student is going to finish the course in less than minimum hours, and wants to make up the time with a cross-channel checkout (which is useful more from the point of view of seeing the paperwork than the actual flying) then maybe it's a useful exercise?
FFF
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I've taken students to France for IR training, and the CAA have never queried it. However, the CAA staff examiners seem reluctant to take IR candidates there, despite my school trying to convince them to do this for 9 months or so (due to cheaper approach fees, easier to book slots, and no further than some UK test routes from our airport). I'm not sure why this is - perhaps there's a doubt about insurance? I know the CAA staff examiners are very conservative when there's any doubt at all about anything.
I believe that doing navigation training in France is the norm for the clubs based in the Channel Islands.
I would question the usefullness of cross-channel navigation as far as the PPL syllabus is concerned, though - the lack of features means it doesn't really contribute much to Ex 18. On the other hand, if a student is going to finish the course in less than minimum hours, and wants to make up the time with a cross-channel checkout (which is useful more from the point of view of seeing the paperwork than the actual flying) then maybe it's a useful exercise?
FFF
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Joined: Jun 2003
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From: EuroGA.org
The answer to this would probably lie in the French "ANO" - does it prohibit what the UK calls "aerial work" in non F-reg aircraft?
If a French instructor takes his student into UK airspace, in an F-reg, and is paid for the instruction (which "obviously" he normally would be) then he is breaching UK ANO Article 140.
I am not aware of such a prohibition in France but then I would hardly know if there was one.
Like many, I had an instructional flight in a G-reg (the old "cross channel checkout") to LTQ with an instructor who obviously got paid for it. Thousands of these have been done so I guess that if they were illegal in France it would have surfaced by now.
IMHO they are certainly not illegal as far as the CAA is concerned. I am not aware of any territorial restriction on loggable UK training flights.
The other angle is this: would the French know? It's just another flight from the UK. The instructor on board is hardly going to advertise his presence. Historically, loads of training has been done outside UK airspace, precisely to avoid the Art 140 restriction on training in say N-reg
If a French instructor takes his student into UK airspace, in an F-reg, and is paid for the instruction (which "obviously" he normally would be) then he is breaching UK ANO Article 140.
I am not aware of such a prohibition in France but then I would hardly know if there was one.
Like many, I had an instructional flight in a G-reg (the old "cross channel checkout") to LTQ with an instructor who obviously got paid for it. Thousands of these have been done so I guess that if they were illegal in France it would have surfaced by now.
IMHO they are certainly not illegal as far as the CAA is concerned. I am not aware of any territorial restriction on loggable UK training flights.
The other angle is this: would the French know? It's just another flight from the UK. The instructor on board is hardly going to advertise his presence. Historically, loads of training has been done outside UK airspace, precisely to avoid the Art 140 restriction on training in say N-reg
Joined: Sep 2004
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From: Down at the sharp pointy end, where all the weather is made.
We had this discussion yesterday. I've a UK BCPL rather than a JAR CPL but I did the JAR FIC. Can't find it in LASORS but provided the aircraft is 'G' reg, I can instruct on it anywhere, including France. It is a little bit of the UK that you carry around with you, was the way it was put.
Cheers,
TheOddOne
Cheers,
TheOddOne
Last edited by TheOddOne; 27th September 2007 at 17:40. Reason: smelling, no, sorry, spelling!
Joined: Jan 2005
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From: Hotel this week, hotel next week, home whenever...
...
All these FTO's (JAA Approved no less) in the U.S. and other parts overseas are in for a shock if you can't. These are usually in N reg aircraft though -- does that make a difference?
Joined: Apr 2002
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From: Surrey, England
Suggestion
Could 'cabbotage' be an issue here?
It may be that it would be perfectly legitimate for a UK based instructor in a 'G' registered aircraft to take a student on a training flight through French, or any other, airspace provided that the flight either commences or finishes at a UK aerodrome.
By contrast, it would definitely be illegal for the same instructor to base himself and his 'G' registered aircraft in France and then carry out training flights commencing and finishing at a French aerodrome, even if his students were resident in France.
Broomstick.
It may be that it would be perfectly legitimate for a UK based instructor in a 'G' registered aircraft to take a student on a training flight through French, or any other, airspace provided that the flight either commences or finishes at a UK aerodrome.
By contrast, it would definitely be illegal for the same instructor to base himself and his 'G' registered aircraft in France and then carry out training flights commencing and finishing at a French aerodrome, even if his students were resident in France.
Broomstick.
