altimeter setting procedures

[Camp Freddie]

hi people,

for years I have been telling people when they depart to the local area/cross country to set QNH, and when they return from the local area/cross country to set QFE.

when they do circuits to set QFE, and to read back to ATC from the ATIS before departure whichever one they are using depending on what they are doing, and always they read back the one they have set.

the CFI has started telling students to set QFE on departure whether they intend to depart the ATZ or not, and to change to QNH when they are leaving the circuit for the local area.

personally I think this will lead to confusion as it creates an additional step i.e resetting the altimeter in the air on departure.

I asked ATC about this and they said you can set what you like if you are VFR and it is class G.

so I wondered what everyone else did ? what the logic was ? and any legal constraints that may affect this.

thanks in advance

regards

CF

[GASH !]

I'm presuming here that this is for a VFR flight below the transition altitude, in which case in the company I work for we always use QNH regardless of whether we are flying circuits or a departure to the local area.

[Arfur Feck-Sake]

I do it Camp Freddie's way for recreational PPL students and GASH's way for commercial students.

[Camp Freddie]

thanks guys so far,

I should have said all flights are VFR, below Transition altitude, Class G airspace, please keep 'em coming as I want to see if there is a vast majority one way or the other

regards

CF

[homeguard]

QFE or QNH

Spot heights and elevations on charts are given relative to msl and therefore QNH albeit that obstructions such as masts give both the height and msl elevations. When height is given with regard to obstructions it will bear little relation to the QFE datum of the point of departure - beware!
By flying away from the circuit it makes safety sense to fly on a datum that unambigously relates to the information on your map.
It should also be considered that earlier this year the UK officially gave up QFE and so the standard UK datum is QNH. Controllers are still required to give the QFE to those pilots that request it.

QNH then is a must for x/country flight but using QFE for landing i'm sure will remain for a long time.

[Contacttower]

the CFI has started telling students to set QFE on departure whether they intend to depart the ATZ or not, and to change to QNH when they are leaving the circuit for the local area.

For ages I used QFE for circuit/landing and QNH if I was leaving the ATZ, then I flew with an instructor that said the same thing as your CFI, I do it when I fly with him (not that often) but any other time I set QNH if I'm leaving. Like you said it has the potential to confuse when departing the zone, people might forget to set QNH.

[DFC]

QNH for all operations at and below the TA. Simple as that...only need to fiddle with the altimeter in class G when going more than 25nm from the field or the pressure changes.

Even the obstacles on the airfield chart are MSL!

Retaining QFE after leaving the circuit has been a reason for airspace infringements.

Regards,

DFC

[Contacttower]

Retaining QFE after leaving the circuit has been a reason for airspace infringements.

Indeed, but if people talked (or even just listened to) to en-route frequencies more they would be given (or at least here) the QNH, which hopefully would remind them.

[usedtofly]

If PPL's (and students) get easily confused between QFE and QNH then I would question their right to be flying in the first place! It's not exactly rocket science

[Duchess_Driver]

QFE....Whats QFE?

QNH always where I work.

Much much simpler.


(I do know what QFE is really!)

[Troy McClure]

At every airfield I've visited, if you call for airfield information for a local flight, or a flight to xxx, they give you QNH. If for circuits, they give you QFE. Is that not the norm?

[The Otter's Pocket]

However PPL students like to fly in relation to the ground that they are about to hit in the circuit and as such they like flying on the QFE.

For example it you climb 20ft up a ladder it is 20ft up, not 120ft above sea level. To a PPL stude it makes more sense in the circuit.
As they progress in training the QNH should be brought in, in stages.
I have always believed that the first method is better, that is my opinion though.

Students do find it strange to be sitting on the runway and the alt reading 120ft.
Keep it simple!

I would however like to read more about infringements in the verticle. I would suggest that most infringements are people flying horizontally into controlled airspace. After all most PPL pilots are flying between 1500 and 2500 feet.
Any higher and they get scared.
If anybody has a link to infringments I would be very grateful.

[hugh flung_dung]

Homeguard: "It should also be considered that earlier this year the UK officially gave up QFE and so the standard UK datum is QNH." - I missed this, where was it published?

HFD

[hobbit1983]

HFD/Homeguard-

"Aircraft are to be given the appropriate QNH prior to commencing an approach. When requested by the pilot, or local procedures require, the appropriate QFE and aerodrome or threshold elevation shall also be given".

See - http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ATSIN103.pdf
and - http://www.flyer.co.uk/news/newsfeed.php?artnum=538

[Up & Away]

QNH

Use QNH always
Only resort to use QFE to teach approaches with students that don't grasp the 'altitude' thing

[Camp Freddie]

interesting,

at the airfield in question, all arriving VFR traffic is given the QFE, they dont seem to have heard that the UK has dropped QFE except where requested, as discussed in earlier posts.

I wonder are GA airfields in practice now dropping QFE for arrivals since this change earlier this year (which I admit I knew nothing about) ?

I should add that in my regular job I fly QNH all the time and using QFE at all seems archaic to me !

regards

CF

[Up & Away]

Would it be best to contact the Air Traffic in question and ask for a polite explaination maybe?? Old habbits etc

[eyeinthesky]

If you are flying circuits at your 'home' airfield, then the elevation of it and therefore the circuit altitude should not take long to get used to. Once the student or whoever has left circuit altitude, then they should be flying a visual picture and not be worrying about whether they are, say 700ft AGL or 900ft AMSL when turning final or whatever. It should all be by reference to a correct visual picture and adjusting the approach as appropriate.

Therefore, my vote is for QNH all the time, and a good pre-arrival brief regarding airfield elevation and circuit altitude before going somewhere new.

This provides an easy transition to instrument flying where altitude information is always presented more obviously than height information (and of course then there is the need to cross check actual altitude with approved procedure altitude as there is no visual picture.)

[BEagle]

It was once so easy in UK - QFE with Tower and QNH with Approach....

Then came leaden-minded airlines with 'one-size-fits-all' solutions, so QNH was more normal for their simple-minded pilots who had to use the same SOPs at 500 ft agl and 5000 ft agl.

Then the 'airline mentality' infected the UK way of working as being the norm. 'Hours builders', thinking that's what real pilots did, were keen to ape their people-tube heroes.

But no-one really thought about the basics. Why use QFE in the UK? Because we can - there are NO high elevation airports, so setting QFE isn't that difficult. Whereas elsewhere, it is impossible. Try setting QFE at Kathmandu! In any case, airliners have radalts, so there's always a height reference available.

Poor old student learning to fly in the circuit is conveniently ignored. No UK airline can afford training, so they don't see this as a problem.

Military pilots, being naturally more capable than wet-behind-the-ears low hours airline co-pilots, can cope with world-wide differences in SOPs. Not a problem....

But ask a UK airline crew to fly an approach at a UK military aerodrome on QFE and they simply can't cope..... Mummy says fly QNH, so that's all they can do....

[VFE]

Did you get booted out of an airline, the military or civvie flying school BEagle?

Just trying to work out where yer chip comes from.

Or maybe it's just simple age jealousy at those young low-houred airline wannabe's? (scuse me whilst I stiffle a yawn here) C'marn, cover up with a winter syrup and smile for once will yer?!

This 'industry' provides fark all money to those of us not lucky enough to be living on a cushy RAF pension whilst we gripe from our brandy-splattered soapboxes, yanno! Forgive me if I am wrong here but didn't even you have to start somewhere... or were ya born with a Phantom up yer arse? Perhaps we should all roll over and die, leaving the skies free for you to fartbox about in, all day long, resplendant in your righteous indignation for those plebs hustling for a meagre existance down here beneath you!

Not content with blaming those further down the ladder for poor quality instruction in the UK we now have veterans blaming everyone for the implimentation of JAR - the real cause of all your weary woes!

There's that many soddin' chips on yer shoulder, Harry Ramsden's even showing interest now mate! Sort it out.

VFE.