Why is Yaw 2nd effect of Roll? (and explain Trim)
Do a Hover - it avoids G
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Why is Yaw 2nd effect of Roll?
(Some people seem to think you cannot yaw with the ball in the middle)
Yes - isn't the further effect of roll really sideslip?
Now I always thought that yaw was defined as rotation about the yaw axis, and that the yaw axis was perpendicular to the lateral and longitudinal axes. So all this talk about the nose yawing around the horizon (except with wings level) and needing 90 degrees of bank to turn without yaw is all a little strange ... or have I got my definitions wrong?
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What is our roll?
Yes Bookworm, thats the point. What do we do with our plates of meat?
Too often it would seem that as part of Ex4 Effects of Controls; Roll-slip-yaw-more roll-more yaw etc is demonstrated. However, adverse yaw is dealt with without development only during ex6 and taken for granted it would seem; do as I say and don't ask why, for you do not need to know. Hence no doubt the question of this thread.
It does need explaining/demonstrating but simply I agree. Lets have some ideas on which we can all agree.
As for yaw around a point in space - OK Yuh!. We are talking here about the movement around the Normal/Longitudinal/Lateral axis of the aeroplane and the further/secondary effects.
Too often it would seem that as part of Ex4 Effects of Controls; Roll-slip-yaw-more roll-more yaw etc is demonstrated. However, adverse yaw is dealt with without development only during ex6 and taken for granted it would seem; do as I say and don't ask why, for you do not need to know. Hence no doubt the question of this thread.
It does need explaining/demonstrating but simply I agree. Lets have some ideas on which we can all agree.
As for yaw around a point in space - OK Yuh!. We are talking here about the movement around the Normal/Longitudinal/Lateral axis of the aeroplane and the further/secondary effects.
Let us assume, for the purposes of the question, that by 'turn' we mean a change in heading or direction. In that case, if the aircraft's wings are level with the horizon a turn can be achieved only by yawing the aircraft around its normal axis (which is at 90° to the horizon). On the other hand, if the aircraft is at 90° angle of bank a turn can be achieved only by pitching the aircraft around its lateral axis (which is at 90° to the horizon). Consequently, if the aircraft is in a banked attitude between 0° and 90° any turn must be a combination of pitch and yaw.
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Why is Yaw 2nd effect of Roll? (and explain Trim)
Why is Yaw 2nd effect of Roll? (and explain Trim)
Why is Yaw 2nd effect of Roll?
You need to qualify that statement, yaw is the secondary effect of UNCORECTED roll
When the aircraft is banked the resultant of lift is inclined away from the vertical producing a decrease in the lift required to maintain level flight. The loss of lift causes the nose to fall towards the downgoing wing which can be seen as yaw. Corrected roll, whereby level flight is maintained by an increase in CC back pressure does not produce the secondary effect.(needs supporting diagram or model)
explain how the trim works accurately and simply - why when we change airspeed does the plane need re-trimming and therefore why trim cannot be finalized until airspeed stabilizes?
Speed is directly proportional to the production of lift so when airspeed is changed this produces a change in lift which either produces a nose up moment or nose down moment, (normally speed up, nose up and vice versa) If the pilot attempts to maintain the original attitude this trim change is felt through the CC by the pilot as a loading. This loading can be removed by aerodynamically producing an equal and opposite force by moving a small aerofoil surface known as a trim tab.(needs supporting diagram or model). As the speed changes so generally will the trim loading , when the speed stablises the trim loading change will remain constant.
I would also mention that the Tiger Moth has a trim wheel which uses a mechanical opposite force EG a big spring! This helps to explain force.
The above are very simple explanations and I am amazed there have been so many posts without adequate simple replies.
ASK CAPTAIN JON
Why is Yaw 2nd effect of Roll?
You need to qualify that statement, yaw is the secondary effect of UNCORECTED roll
When the aircraft is banked the resultant of lift is inclined away from the vertical producing a decrease in the lift required to maintain level flight. The loss of lift causes the nose to fall towards the downgoing wing which can be seen as yaw. Corrected roll, whereby level flight is maintained by an increase in CC back pressure does not produce the secondary effect.(needs supporting diagram or model)
explain how the trim works accurately and simply - why when we change airspeed does the plane need re-trimming and therefore why trim cannot be finalized until airspeed stabilizes?
Speed is directly proportional to the production of lift so when airspeed is changed this produces a change in lift which either produces a nose up moment or nose down moment, (normally speed up, nose up and vice versa) If the pilot attempts to maintain the original attitude this trim change is felt through the CC by the pilot as a loading. This loading can be removed by aerodynamically producing an equal and opposite force by moving a small aerofoil surface known as a trim tab.(needs supporting diagram or model). As the speed changes so generally will the trim loading , when the speed stablises the trim loading change will remain constant.
I would also mention that the Tiger Moth has a trim wheel which uses a mechanical opposite force EG a big spring! This helps to explain force.
The above are very simple explanations and I am amazed there have been so many posts without adequate simple replies.
ASK CAPTAIN JON
Last edited by rondon9897; 28th Mar 2007 at 13:36.
The loss of lift causes the nose to fall towards the downgoing wing which can be seen as yaw.
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bookworm-trying to be clear, so sorry of i am not
As gravity acts vertically downwards the aircraft decends with the resulting airflow hitting (for want of a better word) the fin area, with the fuselage acting as a lever arm, which in turn yaws the nose into the turn.
There is coupled with this the loss of lift in a turn due to lift acting at 90 degrees to the relative airflow. Actually, to explain that better than i ever could here. If you have a flight training manual 1 (PPL air pilots), go to medium level turns and look at the forces in a turn section.
There is coupled with this the loss of lift in a turn due to lift acting at 90 degrees to the relative airflow. Actually, to explain that better than i ever could here. If you have a flight training manual 1 (PPL air pilots), go to medium level turns and look at the forces in a turn section.
As gravity acts vertically downwards the aircraft decends with the resulting airflow hitting (for want of a better word) the fin area, with the fuselage acting as a lever arm, which in turn yaws the nose into the turn.
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Quote:
As gravity acts vertically downwards the aircraft decends with the resulting airflow hitting (for want of a better word) the fin area, with the fuselage acting as a lever arm, which in turn yaws the nose into the turn.
Exactly. In other words, it slips, which in turn causes the yaw -- exa.cnctly as BEagle described at the beginning of the thread. And what's more that still happens if you apply back-pressure. You can only avoid the slip by applying rudder, whether it's a level turn or not!
The quoted example above which you, Boookworm, say you agree with is talking about into turn yaw--you cannot prevent into turn yaw by pressing the rudder on the same side of the turn that just increases the yaw. You are confusing adverse aileron yaw with the further effects,. It dosn't happen if you apply back pressure and keep the aircraft level and what you will be demonstrating then is the effect of adverse aileron yaw.
An aircraft that is disturbed about it horizontal axis (without any aileron movement) will yaw towards the downgoing wing and produce no adverse aileron yaw.
As gravity acts vertically downwards the aircraft decends with the resulting airflow hitting (for want of a better word) the fin area, with the fuselage acting as a lever arm, which in turn yaws the nose into the turn.
Exactly. In other words, it slips, which in turn causes the yaw -- exa.cnctly as BEagle described at the beginning of the thread. And what's more that still happens if you apply back-pressure. You can only avoid the slip by applying rudder, whether it's a level turn or not!
The quoted example above which you, Boookworm, say you agree with is talking about into turn yaw--you cannot prevent into turn yaw by pressing the rudder on the same side of the turn that just increases the yaw. You are confusing adverse aileron yaw with the further effects,. It dosn't happen if you apply back pressure and keep the aircraft level and what you will be demonstrating then is the effect of adverse aileron yaw.
An aircraft that is disturbed about it horizontal axis (without any aileron movement) will yaw towards the downgoing wing and produce no adverse aileron yaw.
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You are confusing adverse aileron yaw with the further effects,. It dosn't happen if you apply back pressure and keep the aircraft level and what you will be demonstrating then is the effect of adverse aileron yaw.
To turn the aeroplane, it has to yaw (other than, as billiebob said earlier, in a level turn at 90deg bank angle - but since that's rather hard to sustain it can be ignored!). To yaw, it either has to have some small amount of sideslip, even in level flight, for the fin to provide a yawing force ... or a small amount of in-turn or bottom rudder is necessary to achieve the same effect.
The quoted example above which you, Boookworm, say you agree with is talking about into turn yaw--you cannot prevent into turn yaw by pressing the rudder on the same side of the turn that just increases the yaw.
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Confusion
NASA seem to share my confusion QUOTE
As long as the aircraft is banked, the side force is a constant, unopposed force on the aircraft. The resulting motion of the center of gravity of the aircraft is a circular arc. When the wings are brought level by an opposing motion of the ailerons, the side force is eliminated and the aircraft continues to fly in a straight line along a new heading. Notice that the rudder is not used to turn the aircraft. The aircraft is turned through the action of the side component of the lift force. The rudder is used during the turn to coordinate the turn, i.e. to keep the nose of the aircraft pointed along the flight path. If the rudder is not used, one can encounter an adverse yaw in which the drag on the outer wing pulls the aircraft nose away from the flight path.
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/turns.html
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AEROSPACE WEB share my confusion too
All this talk of anhedral and dihedral leads to the question of why one would want use either of these on an aircraft. The simple answer is they provide lateral (roll) stability. Let's consider an aircraft rolling to the right. As it does so, the right wing produces more lift than left wing, causing the rolling motion. At the same time, however, this increased lift creates an increased drag, which causes the aircraft to yaw to the left, an effect known as adverse yaw. This is why pilots need to apply rudder in the direction of the turn.
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question...cs/q0055.shtml
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Gliding New Zealand share my confusion too
http://www.gliding.co.nz/Operations/...Secondary_.pdf
Your right I am a very confused person but what confuses me most is how some people on here can be flying instructors
As long as the aircraft is banked, the side force is a constant, unopposed force on the aircraft. The resulting motion of the center of gravity of the aircraft is a circular arc. When the wings are brought level by an opposing motion of the ailerons, the side force is eliminated and the aircraft continues to fly in a straight line along a new heading. Notice that the rudder is not used to turn the aircraft. The aircraft is turned through the action of the side component of the lift force. The rudder is used during the turn to coordinate the turn, i.e. to keep the nose of the aircraft pointed along the flight path. If the rudder is not used, one can encounter an adverse yaw in which the drag on the outer wing pulls the aircraft nose away from the flight path.
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/turns.html
------------------------------------------------------------
AEROSPACE WEB share my confusion too
All this talk of anhedral and dihedral leads to the question of why one would want use either of these on an aircraft. The simple answer is they provide lateral (roll) stability. Let's consider an aircraft rolling to the right. As it does so, the right wing produces more lift than left wing, causing the rolling motion. At the same time, however, this increased lift creates an increased drag, which causes the aircraft to yaw to the left, an effect known as adverse yaw. This is why pilots need to apply rudder in the direction of the turn.
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question...cs/q0055.shtml
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Gliding New Zealand share my confusion too
http://www.gliding.co.nz/Operations/...Secondary_.pdf
Your right I am a very confused person but what confuses me most is how some people on here can be flying instructors
To turn the aeroplane, it has to yaw (other than, as billiebob said earlier, in a level turn at 90deg bank angle - but since that's rather hard to sustain it can be ignored!). To yaw, it either has to have some small amount of sideslip, even in level flight, for the fin to provide a yawing force ... or a small amount of in-turn or bottom rudder is necessary to achieve the same effect.
Yaw is not required in order for the aircraft to change heading EXCEPT when the wings are level.
A normal turn results from the horizontal component of the lift vector.
Yaw results from BANK when the vertical component of lift is insufficient to balance the weight - the aircraft sideslips and directional stability results in yaw.
Yaw results from ROLL because of differential drag caused by aileron deflection. Differential and frise ailerons reduce this but will only work optimally at a certain speed or angle of attack and (I believe) are typically optimised for cruise speed.
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Yaw is not required in order for the aircraft to change heading EXCEPT when the wings are level.
See the earlier posts from John Farley and billiebob. Also, find a good book on the principles of flight that gives a vector diagram for a turn showing the relative contributions of pitching moment and yawing moment. All normal turns are a combination of pitching and yawing ... a bank angle is merely what enables these to occur (and if they didn't occur, the aeroplane would just slide sideways without turning).