Is anyone paid for ground briefing time?
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Whopity..
That's sound about right to me. Between £15 and £20 per hour is a reasonable professional fee.
I don`t suppose anyone else will agree, but where volunteer instructors choose to give their services for nothing the school or club should still charge the going rate and stick in the kitty.
I just can`t get my head round professional instructors not being paid for professional services... Why some promote a self study regime or hold ground school classes for peanuts defeats me.
Ground School is part of the job description.. isn`t it? If so it's chargeable.
That's sound about right to me. Between £15 and £20 per hour is a reasonable professional fee.
I don`t suppose anyone else will agree, but where volunteer instructors choose to give their services for nothing the school or club should still charge the going rate and stick in the kitty.
I just can`t get my head round professional instructors not being paid for professional services... Why some promote a self study regime or hold ground school classes for peanuts defeats me.
Ground School is part of the job description.. isn`t it? If so it's chargeable.
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Groundschool
I don't normally respond to most threads, just read through them, but this topic is one close to heart.
No student will ever learn enough just from reading the books a couple of hours a night; they have to get down to the club and spend time with an instructor!!!! No quibbles.
Where I work, once the students are at 15+ hours, I politley and tactfully inform them that structured ground school is a must. We find that 60% of students take up the offer, and I book two - three hour slots at a time.
We charge 65.00 per hour, and the instructor receives 35.00 per hour of that. Great for those winter nights, or bad weather days. People will pay the money so long as the quality of instruction & hand outs & practical walk arounds are evident to them. I can back up my statement. Last month I did 70hrs of flying, followed by 32hrs of groundschool. ( 32hrs x 35 = over a grand!).
Don't wish to sound like a T**t because I'm blowing my own trumpet, cause I'm a half decent modest quiet person really, but remember that we are very highly trained with a lot of knowledge, it's only fair that we get paid appropriatly.
New students don't know how flying clubs work, so why not start from scratch with them, and tell them straight that a few hours of groundschool will do them no harm. If all flying clubs start making Ground School mandatory, we're all onto a winner!!!
Hope I haven't said anything out of term, apologies if I have!!!!!!!!
It's time to get us flying instructors recognised as being just as important and capable as any other pilot out there.
Just briefly, the flying club owners who don't do structured groundschool are missing out on roughly an extra grand in their back pocket!
Where I work shall remain anonymous, but the set up is great, the wages per month are always fantastic, even in the depths of winter! Don't see why it cant be elsewhere.
RV
No student will ever learn enough just from reading the books a couple of hours a night; they have to get down to the club and spend time with an instructor!!!! No quibbles.
Where I work, once the students are at 15+ hours, I politley and tactfully inform them that structured ground school is a must. We find that 60% of students take up the offer, and I book two - three hour slots at a time.
We charge 65.00 per hour, and the instructor receives 35.00 per hour of that. Great for those winter nights, or bad weather days. People will pay the money so long as the quality of instruction & hand outs & practical walk arounds are evident to them. I can back up my statement. Last month I did 70hrs of flying, followed by 32hrs of groundschool. ( 32hrs x 35 = over a grand!).
Don't wish to sound like a T**t because I'm blowing my own trumpet, cause I'm a half decent modest quiet person really, but remember that we are very highly trained with a lot of knowledge, it's only fair that we get paid appropriatly.
New students don't know how flying clubs work, so why not start from scratch with them, and tell them straight that a few hours of groundschool will do them no harm. If all flying clubs start making Ground School mandatory, we're all onto a winner!!!
Hope I haven't said anything out of term, apologies if I have!!!!!!!!
It's time to get us flying instructors recognised as being just as important and capable as any other pilot out there.
Just briefly, the flying club owners who don't do structured groundschool are missing out on roughly an extra grand in their back pocket!
Where I work shall remain anonymous, but the set up is great, the wages per month are always fantastic, even in the depths of winter! Don't see why it cant be elsewhere.
RV
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Thank you everyone for your replies, which both confirm that I'm not alone in being slightly exploited and also that I'm not alone in thinking that I am slightly exploited and that it takes the p1$$ a little!
I think schools think that we owe them a huge favour for allowing us to do the work we like to do and not that we've earned it by having the guts to take a risky life choice and then spending thousands of pounds and many hours, days and years acquiring our expertise. Or that if it wasn't for us they wouldn't have a business at all!
Mad Jock - your comments on the other thread about school owners made me laugh - they're just spot on! I've never come across another business where managers moan about their lot to the _clients_ even, for goodness' sake!! But I think for the sake of balance female FIs who receive comments from their male studes with 2 hours in their logbook about our ability to park should charge an additional 10% too!
I think schools think that we owe them a huge favour for allowing us to do the work we like to do and not that we've earned it by having the guts to take a risky life choice and then spending thousands of pounds and many hours, days and years acquiring our expertise. Or that if it wasn't for us they wouldn't have a business at all!
Mad Jock - your comments on the other thread about school owners made me laugh - they're just spot on! I've never come across another business where managers moan about their lot to the _clients_ even, for goodness' sake!! But I think for the sake of balance female FIs who receive comments from their male studes with 2 hours in their logbook about our ability to park should charge an additional 10% too!
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
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Today I left my house at 08:00 and arrived 'at work' around 09:15.
I did about 3 hours airborne instruction and managed to grab around 10 minutes for lunch this afternoon whilst a student did the pre-flight. Other than that my only breaks consisted of two visits to the toilet.
I left work at around 16:00 and arrived home at 17:15.
That's 9 hours away from home, 6 and a half of which were spent 'at work'. My busy schedule allowed for 10 minutes unplanned 'rest'.
For this I can expect to receive 3 hours pay.
You don't have to be mad but it helps.
I did about 3 hours airborne instruction and managed to grab around 10 minutes for lunch this afternoon whilst a student did the pre-flight. Other than that my only breaks consisted of two visits to the toilet.
I left work at around 16:00 and arrived home at 17:15.
That's 9 hours away from home, 6 and a half of which were spent 'at work'. My busy schedule allowed for 10 minutes unplanned 'rest'.
For this I can expect to receive 3 hours pay.
You don't have to be mad but it helps.
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Hi VFE,
You actually made me laugh out loud after reading your last post, thanks.
I am also thinking of persuing the FI route, as still no flying job after being qualified for 3 years.
Have a wife a 2 kids, so by the look of things we are all going to have to develop a sense of humour when I loose my regular pay and get FI pay.
I might have to send them home to my mum for food and a roof over their heads, crazy business !
Dont have to be mad, but it helps.....spot on VFE
You actually made me laugh out loud after reading your last post, thanks.
I am also thinking of persuing the FI route, as still no flying job after being qualified for 3 years.
Have a wife a 2 kids, so by the look of things we are all going to have to develop a sense of humour when I loose my regular pay and get FI pay.
I might have to send them home to my mum for food and a roof over their heads, crazy business !
Dont have to be mad, but it helps.....spot on VFE
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Hi Sky Goose,
Good on you - perhaps you should continue with the 'proper job' and do FIing part-time initially? Most people seem to have something else they do, especially through the winter. I have, thank goodness! Weekend instructors don't get much less work overall anyway, it seems - just tends to be more trial lessons, etc.
Having said that, I don't have many weekends with my family/friends nowadays.
Good on you - perhaps you should continue with the 'proper job' and do FIing part-time initially? Most people seem to have something else they do, especially through the winter. I have, thank goodness! Weekend instructors don't get much less work overall anyway, it seems - just tends to be more trial lessons, etc.
Having said that, I don't have many weekends with my family/friends nowadays.
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
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I too have opted to seek other work and instruct at weekends for the time being until the weather improves - apart from anything else, sitting around on your backside watching the rain making pretty patterns in the puddles does nothing for your mental well being at the age of 29. If I were 92 it may be different but it's decidedly unhealthy to be spending so much time doing so little in my opinion. To mention nothing of the fact I'm skint!
Sky Goose,
Thanks for the compliments, a GSOH is definately required in this game for sure!
If I were in your shoes and could afford the FI rating I would do it sooner rather than later. Best time of year to get cracking with it actually because in two months things will be picking up again and you shouldn't face too much trouble securing an FI job, full time or part time.
Three years since qualifying is a long time. I let it go for two years before pulling my finger out and doing the FI rating and that was more than long enough so get cracking otherwise you'll be obsolete and unemployable unless you're getting in plenty of flying through other means?
Instructing is good fun if your overheads don't exceed your income and you don't have to spend hours stuck in traffic before you even start your busy working day. That will take the novelty out of the experience because when you're fed up before even arriving at work and then faced with the onerous task of playing the 'chirpy instructor' part you'll soon start pining for the cushy office job again.
That said, when you lift off on a gorgeous winters morning at 9am with scarcily a cloud in sight as your soar away from the airfield across beautiful frost covered fields resting in the milky morning sunshine, turn and look at your student as they competently master the controls and realise you're actually being paid to do this, it's hard work trying to stiffle your grin whilst thanking your lucky stars that you got this life and not the dustmans.
VFE.
Sky Goose,
Thanks for the compliments, a GSOH is definately required in this game for sure!
If I were in your shoes and could afford the FI rating I would do it sooner rather than later. Best time of year to get cracking with it actually because in two months things will be picking up again and you shouldn't face too much trouble securing an FI job, full time or part time.
Three years since qualifying is a long time. I let it go for two years before pulling my finger out and doing the FI rating and that was more than long enough so get cracking otherwise you'll be obsolete and unemployable unless you're getting in plenty of flying through other means?
Instructing is good fun if your overheads don't exceed your income and you don't have to spend hours stuck in traffic before you even start your busy working day. That will take the novelty out of the experience because when you're fed up before even arriving at work and then faced with the onerous task of playing the 'chirpy instructor' part you'll soon start pining for the cushy office job again.
That said, when you lift off on a gorgeous winters morning at 9am with scarcily a cloud in sight as your soar away from the airfield across beautiful frost covered fields resting in the milky morning sunshine, turn and look at your student as they competently master the controls and realise you're actually being paid to do this, it's hard work trying to stiffle your grin whilst thanking your lucky stars that you got this life and not the dustmans.
VFE.
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Penguina and VFE
Thanks for the replies and advice,
Yes 3 years is a long time, and no I haven't been doing much flying besides keeping my IR current and some 737-200 sim for my MCC and assessment prep.
Hence the change of tactic, looks like the FI route is the only way, was trying to avoid that route, not because of the job itself, but because of the pay and the fact that my wife and kids will have live with her parent in Sweden. Not a good way to raise a family.
I have an assessment with Ryanair next Wednesday (Feb 7th), but if I botch that I'll be selling the house, moving the wife and kids off and starting an FI rating with Stapleford in April.
Will see how things pan out, once the FI rating is done I might be able to do some contract work for my current employer part time and instruct on weekend and possibly some days during the week. Then the family could return and see if we can manage.
All rather daunting but something needs to be done, still bonkers about planes.
Yes 3 years is a long time, and no I haven't been doing much flying besides keeping my IR current and some 737-200 sim for my MCC and assessment prep.
Hence the change of tactic, looks like the FI route is the only way, was trying to avoid that route, not because of the job itself, but because of the pay and the fact that my wife and kids will have live with her parent in Sweden. Not a good way to raise a family.
I have an assessment with Ryanair next Wednesday (Feb 7th), but if I botch that I'll be selling the house, moving the wife and kids off and starting an FI rating with Stapleford in April.
Will see how things pan out, once the FI rating is done I might be able to do some contract work for my current employer part time and instruct on weekend and possibly some days during the week. Then the family could return and see if we can manage.
All rather daunting but something needs to be done, still bonkers about planes.
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
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I assume that doing the FI rating part time and continuing to work full time in your current job whilst keeping your family here is not an option? If you want the name of a flexible FI instructor near Cambridge I can help you out there - he'll work around you if required.
VFE.
VFE.
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Hi VFE,
Yes that would be an option, I was under the impression that they liked you to work at least 4 days a week.
I could possibly continue working for my current employer 3 days a week, but would take some savvy negotiating ! That FI in Cambrideshire sounds promising, part time FI course would also ease the burden and would be able to start sooner. All the big schools dont offer part time FI courses, thought it was not an option.
Cheers for that
Goose
Yes that would be an option, I was under the impression that they liked you to work at least 4 days a week.
I could possibly continue working for my current employer 3 days a week, but would take some savvy negotiating ! That FI in Cambrideshire sounds promising, part time FI course would also ease the burden and would be able to start sooner. All the big schools dont offer part time FI courses, thought it was not an option.
Cheers for that
Goose
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I can only speak for instructors in the United States, but I thought I'd post anyway, in case anybody was curious about how we do it. At all the flight schools with which I have experience, instructors are paid for each hour (pro-rated) they work with a student, whether it's on the ground or in the air. Obviously we don't charge for the time we're on the phone/tugging the aircraft/etc etc. Some flight schools offer different pay rates for ground instruction and flight instruction.
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I would echo the last post. Just returned from Florida and paid the same rate for ground instruction as I did for flight instruction.
For six hours with an instructor, flying and briefing I paid for 6 hours. After all a good ground briefing can save so much time in the air. Besides which, the ground is usually the best place to understand what is required.
For six hours with an instructor, flying and briefing I paid for 6 hours. After all a good ground briefing can save so much time in the air. Besides which, the ground is usually the best place to understand what is required.
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
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I would not read too much into how these things are broken down on your bill. My last employer told customers the instructor fee was double what they actually paid me and pocketed 50%!! The cheek of it eh?
VFE.
VFE.
