instructor pay, may concern some schools
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2005
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From: UK, Paris, Peckham, New York
instructor pay, may concern some schools
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6243307.stm
might be of concern to some schools/instructors, or might not..
might be of concern to some schools/instructors, or might not..
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 617
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From: Inside the roster matrix
Here's a new concept. Why not demand a basic and a flight pay after you have flown eg. the first 20 / 30 hours (depending on the basic).
If I am being paid and the weather is poor, I don't mind painting the kitchen and toilets, just give me a fair deal that I can live on.
I have seen some schools that really take the pi##, charge the students top money for very poor aircraft, then have the face to pay a joke of a days pay.
I refused to take the offer when I saw the conditions, needless to say.
If I am being paid and the weather is poor, I don't mind painting the kitchen and toilets, just give me a fair deal that I can live on.
I have seen some schools that really take the pi##, charge the students top money for very poor aircraft, then have the face to pay a joke of a days pay.
I refused to take the offer when I saw the conditions, needless to say.
Joined: May 2004
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From: Neither Here Nor There
Instructor Salaries??
There's a question.
What would you consider to be a fair wage, taking into account the depth and breadth of training, the level of qualification held and the service being delivered, for varying instructor grades?
Should all instructors be salaried, should they be paid only for hours flown or should they receive a retainer and a wage for hours flown?
Should there be a formal grading system, from FI(R), through primary instruction up to CPL and IR instructors and even on to TRIs and including grades of examiners along the route?
If so, who should recognise and adminster such a system? AOPA, BALPA, GAPAN, or should there be an autonomous body specifically for instructors with membership benefits including professionally researched recommended salary scales.
Driving Instructors have the Driving Standards Agency so why shouldn't flying instructors have a similar professional body?
It seems that the present "system" (or lack thereof) is so without structure that it is wide open to abuse.
If such a body existed, do you feel that there would be a take-up from the instructor fraternity (and sisters) to support such a body? For that matter, has this been tried before and if so where did it go?
2close
What would you consider to be a fair wage, taking into account the depth and breadth of training, the level of qualification held and the service being delivered, for varying instructor grades?
Should all instructors be salaried, should they be paid only for hours flown or should they receive a retainer and a wage for hours flown?
Should there be a formal grading system, from FI(R), through primary instruction up to CPL and IR instructors and even on to TRIs and including grades of examiners along the route?
If so, who should recognise and adminster such a system? AOPA, BALPA, GAPAN, or should there be an autonomous body specifically for instructors with membership benefits including professionally researched recommended salary scales.
Driving Instructors have the Driving Standards Agency so why shouldn't flying instructors have a similar professional body?
It seems that the present "system" (or lack thereof) is so without structure that it is wide open to abuse.
If such a body existed, do you feel that there would be a take-up from the instructor fraternity (and sisters) to support such a body? For that matter, has this been tried before and if so where did it go?
2close
Moderator
Joined: Mar 2003
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From: Orlando, Florida
We will never manage to get a decent salary for (less than very senior) instructors as long as so many fully qualified pilots are prepared to fly for free, or even PAY to fly, just to build hours.
How can you expect any commercial operation (flying school) to turn away qualified staff that will give them money, or fly for free?
Of course it's a combination of eager enthusiasm and clear lack of industry education that has these folks begging to be allowed to work AT ALL - but as long as they are willing and able, it's game over for the reputable instructor with a bit of experience.
How can you expect any commercial operation (flying school) to turn away qualified staff that will give them money, or fly for free?
Of course it's a combination of eager enthusiasm and clear lack of industry education that has these folks begging to be allowed to work AT ALL - but as long as they are willing and able, it's game over for the reputable instructor with a bit of experience.
Joined: Sep 2005
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From: Inside the roster matrix
Well, having pilots work for almost free and indeed paying for their own renewals through to type ratings, has palgued the industry for a while now.
Look at the majority of TP Operators now, they pay 20k and expect you to pay for the TR (or fund your own bond).
What a crock!
Back to the thread....
This is a tough one. It first has to come from the individuals. Again, if we all stood together and didn't see instructing as a short term stepping stone, but part of the professonal pilots ladder, because that is what we are, the situation may change.
Money wise, the weather plays an important role in this but a basic of 14k and then flight pay of £20 / hr after 20 hrs / month should be a good starter.
I think 16-20k is a fair price depending on location, ratings and aircraft.
Put it this way, a McDonnalds manager gets about 17k, and I know of Instructors getting close to 10k. WTF!!!
As you say, the bodies such as BALPA, IPA etc... should speak to Government and enforce this. We need a min wage and it's not our fault if it rains for 2 weeks. If it costs the student more, so be it. But then the number of students reduces and we are back to square one.
Spain is becoming more appealing by the day!
Look at the majority of TP Operators now, they pay 20k and expect you to pay for the TR (or fund your own bond).
What a crock!
Back to the thread....
This is a tough one. It first has to come from the individuals. Again, if we all stood together and didn't see instructing as a short term stepping stone, but part of the professonal pilots ladder, because that is what we are, the situation may change.
Money wise, the weather plays an important role in this but a basic of 14k and then flight pay of £20 / hr after 20 hrs / month should be a good starter.
I think 16-20k is a fair price depending on location, ratings and aircraft.
Put it this way, a McDonnalds manager gets about 17k, and I know of Instructors getting close to 10k. WTF!!!
As you say, the bodies such as BALPA, IPA etc... should speak to Government and enforce this. We need a min wage and it's not our fault if it rains for 2 weeks. If it costs the student more, so be it. But then the number of students reduces and we are back to square one.
Spain is becoming more appealing by the day!
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
Joined: May 2000
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From: England
Speaking from my own perspective, the rate and manner in which I am paid is pathetic. I do not even class myself as having a proper 'job', such is my lowly status on the employment front.
A salaried position within a flying school should not be too much to expect. A few FTO's do this in the UK but not nearly enough, mainly for the reasons Keygrip mentioned.
Just as an aside, for those currently struggling with the current weather conditions across the UK - you are entitled to claim Job Seekers Allowance if you work less than 16 hours per week. If you are paid per flying hour this might be something you are entitled to. £57/week - not to be sniffed at.
Think about all the VAT ya paid on your training.
VFE.
A salaried position within a flying school should not be too much to expect. A few FTO's do this in the UK but not nearly enough, mainly for the reasons Keygrip mentioned.
Just as an aside, for those currently struggling with the current weather conditions across the UK - you are entitled to claim Job Seekers Allowance if you work less than 16 hours per week. If you are paid per flying hour this might be something you are entitled to. £57/week - not to be sniffed at.
Think about all the VAT ya paid on your training.
VFE.
Last edited by VFE; 12th January 2007 at 15:33.
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 207
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From: UK
Keygrip
In the UK times are changing. At the school I work for (London area) they are always short of instructors. The trouble with using part-timers is that you can't rely on them to work other than when they feel like it and you can't shake the Big Stick quite as much as you can with full-timers.
If you are a competent FI (UK) with a few hours under your belt, the schools need you right now more you need them. I work for a busy school in the London area and they are always short of instructors, particularly as fewer and fewer wannabe Nintendo jet pilots want to spend £5-8k on a FI rating when they can pay for a type rating instead and "fly" for an airline with 200 hours in their log books. With the advent of the new Multi Pilot Licence, light aircraft instruction will be even more irrelevant to transport jet operations and even fewer will choose to mark time this way.
This is good news for those who really want to teach for living and ultimately for the students as well.
In the UK times are changing. At the school I work for (London area) they are always short of instructors. The trouble with using part-timers is that you can't rely on them to work other than when they feel like it and you can't shake the Big Stick quite as much as you can with full-timers.
If you are a competent FI (UK) with a few hours under your belt, the schools need you right now more you need them. I work for a busy school in the London area and they are always short of instructors, particularly as fewer and fewer wannabe Nintendo jet pilots want to spend £5-8k on a FI rating when they can pay for a type rating instead and "fly" for an airline with 200 hours in their log books. With the advent of the new Multi Pilot Licence, light aircraft instruction will be even more irrelevant to transport jet operations and even fewer will choose to mark time this way.
This is good news for those who really want to teach for living and ultimately for the students as well.
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,524
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From: United Kingdom
Actually, in the UK it hasn't. The MPL is part of Amendment 7 to JAR-FCL 1 but the UK are stuck at Amendment 5 (a well kept secret!). It is unlikely that the MPL will be adopted by the UK until at least 2008.
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 412
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From: essex
Had a look at the news item regarding minimum wage
I don't think that unscrupulous employers are going to be too worried by a £200 fine - in fact they will probably pay the fine from all of the money they saved not paying a decent wage
I know it will be potentially backdated but it won't make too many worry
I don't think that unscrupulous employers are going to be too worried by a £200 fine - in fact they will probably pay the fine from all of the money they saved not paying a decent wage
I know it will be potentially backdated but it won't make too many worry
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 120
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From: SE England
Was I reading it wrong, or was the £200-per-worker fine going to HMRC?
Wouldn't it be fair if the money went to those who are being underpaid, or would that not mean a profit for big Tony's bank account? I don't think I'd be very happy to learn that me being underpaid meant that the Government get to have the money I should have been paid!
Wouldn't it be fair if the money went to those who are being underpaid, or would that not mean a profit for big Tony's bank account? I don't think I'd be very happy to learn that me being underpaid meant that the Government get to have the money I should have been paid!
Joined: May 2006
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From: West Mids
If you are talking about commercial instructing - it is around 32K Euros - for SEP more for MEIR - PPL is probably around the same as UK -
