Ex 3 flown at night?
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Ex 3 flown at night?
Don't know if this has been done before.
Have had a few specific enquiries of late from Trial Lesson Gift Voucher holders asking if they could do their 30 or 60 mins at night. I've trawled all the available regs, ANO, JAR Syllabus and insurance docs etc, but can find nothing from a legal stand point to prevent these flights going ahead.
Anybody know something i don't or have any thoughts?
cheers..
Have had a few specific enquiries of late from Trial Lesson Gift Voucher holders asking if they could do their 30 or 60 mins at night. I've trawled all the available regs, ANO, JAR Syllabus and insurance docs etc, but can find nothing from a legal stand point to prevent these flights going ahead.
Anybody know something i don't or have any thoughts?
cheers..
Why do it if it's not fun?
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What exactly do you teach as Ex 3?
Any syllabus that is written down is quite vague on this, because it will vary so much from school to school, instructor to instructor and student to student. However, since it is a lesson, and in most cases it will be the student's first ever lesson (if not their first ever time in a light aircraft), surely it must start with the very basics. That, to me, would be attitude flying, and using the controls to alter the attitude.
Of course there will typically be a large element of sight-seeing in the lesson for commercial reasons. We want to show the students how much fun it is to fly a light aircraft, and if the first lesson is all work and no play then the chances are they won't want to come back for more. But there must be at least a degree of instruction.
On this basis, I would say that it is not possible to give the lesson at night. Without a horizon, it is not feasable for the student to be receiving any kind of meaningful instruction. This flight would be treading the very thin line between Ex 3 and a passenger-carrying flight requiring an AOC (which, incidentally, would not be possible even if your company had an AOC to the best of my knowledge, since night flight must nearly always be IFR in the UK and JAR-OPS doesn't allow single-engine IFR).
That's my opinion. I believe you are correct in that there is nothing written down anywhere which says explicitly whether or not night trial lessons are allowed, but by thinking logically through the question you can form your own opinion and either agree with me or not.
FFF
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Any syllabus that is written down is quite vague on this, because it will vary so much from school to school, instructor to instructor and student to student. However, since it is a lesson, and in most cases it will be the student's first ever lesson (if not their first ever time in a light aircraft), surely it must start with the very basics. That, to me, would be attitude flying, and using the controls to alter the attitude.
Of course there will typically be a large element of sight-seeing in the lesson for commercial reasons. We want to show the students how much fun it is to fly a light aircraft, and if the first lesson is all work and no play then the chances are they won't want to come back for more. But there must be at least a degree of instruction.
On this basis, I would say that it is not possible to give the lesson at night. Without a horizon, it is not feasable for the student to be receiving any kind of meaningful instruction. This flight would be treading the very thin line between Ex 3 and a passenger-carrying flight requiring an AOC (which, incidentally, would not be possible even if your company had an AOC to the best of my knowledge, since night flight must nearly always be IFR in the UK and JAR-OPS doesn't allow single-engine IFR).
That's my opinion. I believe you are correct in that there is nothing written down anywhere which says explicitly whether or not night trial lessons are allowed, but by thinking logically through the question you can form your own opinion and either agree with me or not.
FFF
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Night classes
You may train students at any time if your licences and rating allow. Opinion is irrelevant. Although some exercises such as PFLs are limited at night, aren't they.
Ex3 is 'air experience' and may take any form that you wish. The first thing that a prospective student and the instructor need to know is; how do I cope and do I like being airborne in an aircraft and do I wish to learn. An important element prior to commencing with EX4 -19. Most likely you will introduce tiny bits of most elements of flight. Many people will find it a very special experience being airborne at night.
Horizons do not disappear simply because its dark. Horizons disappear at all times.
IFR/VFR makes no difference. AOC's can contain anything but are related to the specific operations. IFR does not determine how many engines that you must have.
Ex3 is 'air experience' and may take any form that you wish. The first thing that a prospective student and the instructor need to know is; how do I cope and do I like being airborne in an aircraft and do I wish to learn. An important element prior to commencing with EX4 -19. Most likely you will introduce tiny bits of most elements of flight. Many people will find it a very special experience being airborne at night.
Horizons do not disappear simply because its dark. Horizons disappear at all times.
IFR/VFR makes no difference. AOC's can contain anything but are related to the specific operations. IFR does not determine how many engines that you must have.
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I agree with the previous posters that IMHO not much would be learn't from a night flight for a beginner, however, so long as you are unrestricted for night instruction I don't see why it shouldn't happen... after all, the night rating can be incorporated into the 45 hrs required to gain a ppl and there is no stipulation as to the order the course is taught in.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Homeguard,
I respect your opinion, even though it may differ from mine on this occasion.
However, at the risk of sending this thread off on a tangent, you said:
That is not true. JAR-OPS 1.525 states:
So, whether or not a instructional flight is allowed at night might be open for debate, but a transport flight (to which JAR-OPS 1 applied) would not be allowed at night in a single.
Like I said, a tangent, since the original question related specifically to instructional flights to which JAR-OPS does not apply.
FFF
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I respect your opinion, even though it may differ from mine on this occasion.
However, at the risk of sending this thread off on a tangent, you said:
IFR/VFR makes no difference. AOC's can contain anything but are related to the specific operations. IFR does not determine how many engines that you must have.
(a) An operator shall not operate a single engine aeroplane:
(1) At night; or
(2) In Instrument Meteorological Conditions except under Special Visual Flight Rules.
(1) At night; or
(2) In Instrument Meteorological Conditions except under Special Visual Flight Rules.
Like I said, a tangent, since the original question related specifically to instructional flights to which JAR-OPS does not apply.
FFF
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I've considered these flights, myself.
Can't see any reason why a trial lesson should not be taken at night. All of the exercises are valid, though you may only discuss the PFL. After all, the aeroplane doesn't know that it's dark.
bogbeagle
Can't see any reason why a trial lesson should not be taken at night. All of the exercises are valid, though you may only discuss the PFL. After all, the aeroplane doesn't know that it's dark.
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Ops
FFF
I'm being lazy and not looking up the tomes. forgive me. However doesn't the JAR's you qoute refer to the 'carriage of passengers'. In this case, the question regards 'Arial work', flight instruction. If the exemptions granted to a club were not exploited and therefore the flight was/is subject to an AOC the AOC would need to account for the actual operations being performed. That is training a pilot who, is not a passenger.
I'm being lazy and not looking up the tomes. forgive me. However doesn't the JAR's you qoute refer to the 'carriage of passengers'. In this case, the question regards 'Arial work', flight instruction. If the exemptions granted to a club were not exploited and therefore the flight was/is subject to an AOC the AOC would need to account for the actual operations being performed. That is training a pilot who, is not a passenger.
Exercise 3 is Air Experience, there is no legal reason why it should not be conducted at night however, would it normally be conducted at night? The answer to the latter is probably No. You could probably think of a few reasons why not.
A trial lesson is exactly that, a lesson that is conducted as a trial to see if the candidate likes or wants to continue therefore, it is surely in your best interest to conduct it under realistic conditions.
Why does the candidate want to fly at night, is it to see the lights in which case it could be construed to be sightseeing rather than a trial lesson.
Will you brief your student stating that there is a greater risk at night if the engine were to fail, whilst the risk is small and the aircraft doesn't know its dark, there is less chance of a successful landing than if it happend in the daytime.
Finally if you are going to conduct a trial flight at night, it would be Exercise 20 not Exercise 3.
A trial lesson is exactly that, a lesson that is conducted as a trial to see if the candidate likes or wants to continue therefore, it is surely in your best interest to conduct it under realistic conditions.
Why does the candidate want to fly at night, is it to see the lights in which case it could be construed to be sightseeing rather than a trial lesson.
Will you brief your student stating that there is a greater risk at night if the engine were to fail, whilst the risk is small and the aircraft doesn't know its dark, there is less chance of a successful landing than if it happend in the daytime.
Finally if you are going to conduct a trial flight at night, it would be Exercise 20 not Exercise 3.
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Perhaps. as with all flying exercises, it is more easy to understand what you are doing and trying to achieve If you discuss what the actually AIM of the exercise is.
Can I remind instructors that the exercise is not a trial lesson, it is AIR EXPERIENCE. Try briefing yourselves on what you are trying to achieve and what you want the student to leave the school having learnt.
Below I have listed some of the aims i have come across with this exercise.
To keep the flying school in business
To build up hours
To give a PPL free flying
To show off your flying skills
To chat up a student
To ferry an aircraft
To do a weather check
My aim is the one I write on the board
To introduce the student to the sensation of flying in a light aircraft.
Can that aim be achieved at Night, of course but can it be better achieved during the day,unless of course you intend to conduct the whole course at night.
Taken to its extreme its a bit like saying, should you do a Ex 3 in a thunderstorm? Of course you should if you intend to conduct the whole course in a thunderstorm!
Can I remind instructors that the exercise is not a trial lesson, it is AIR EXPERIENCE. Try briefing yourselves on what you are trying to achieve and what you want the student to leave the school having learnt.
Below I have listed some of the aims i have come across with this exercise.
To keep the flying school in business
To build up hours
To give a PPL free flying
To show off your flying skills
To chat up a student
To ferry an aircraft
To do a weather check
My aim is the one I write on the board
To introduce the student to the sensation of flying in a light aircraft.
Can that aim be achieved at Night, of course but can it be better achieved during the day,unless of course you intend to conduct the whole course at night.
Taken to its extreme its a bit like saying, should you do a Ex 3 in a thunderstorm? Of course you should if you intend to conduct the whole course in a thunderstorm!
