Tayside FIs now wearing stripes
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Tayside FIs now wearing stripes
Popped into Dundee and Glenrothes this afternoon and had to do a few double takes at Tayside FIs now wearing Gold Bars. Made me in my t-shirt and shorts look very relaxed when instructing, 
but it was 25C! What brought the change in uniform? Looks a bit OTT for a flying club that always seems to have a friendly and relaxed atmosphere!
I spotted 3 bars and one chap with 1 bar? Any significance?
but it was 25C! What brought the change in uniform? Looks a bit OTT for a flying club that always seems to have a friendly and relaxed atmosphere!I spotted 3 bars and one chap with 1 bar? Any significance?
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The bars thing has been on/off for years. I started instructing at Tayside in 2001, and all instructors were issued with Tayside instructor's wings. Only one of the guys actually wore his (wasn't me) and LF wasn't insistent about the rest of us sticking them on.
One or two of the instructors voluntarily began to wear bars at this time. The company line was that either everyone did or everyone didn't. I wasn't a fan of the idea, was of the opinion that once I started flying something that ran on Avtur and cruised at FL400 then I deserved to wear them (funnily enough, when I DID eventually start flying one of those neither the skipper nor I wore wings or bars.... He reckoned it attracted too much attention in airports from people stopping you to ask why their flight was delayed/cancelled/where their luggage was etc.)
Anyway, I can only assume that the new uniform at Glenrothes must be some part of the new management's plan to 'de-militarise' the place after their dis-satisfaction at the 'overly-macho and militaristic atmosphere' that myself and the other 2001-2004 lads apparently instilled at Fife. Encouraging the correct ethos in MoD Flying Scholarship cadets anyone? Apparently not compatible with the post-LF regime...
One or two of the instructors voluntarily began to wear bars at this time. The company line was that either everyone did or everyone didn't. I wasn't a fan of the idea, was of the opinion that once I started flying something that ran on Avtur and cruised at FL400 then I deserved to wear them (funnily enough, when I DID eventually start flying one of those neither the skipper nor I wore wings or bars.... He reckoned it attracted too much attention in airports from people stopping you to ask why their flight was delayed/cancelled/where their luggage was etc.)
Anyway, I can only assume that the new uniform at Glenrothes must be some part of the new management's plan to 'de-militarise' the place after their dis-satisfaction at the 'overly-macho and militaristic atmosphere' that myself and the other 2001-2004 lads apparently instilled at Fife. Encouraging the correct ethos in MoD Flying Scholarship cadets anyone? Apparently not compatible with the post-LF regime...
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Mr R Sole, I do hope you are joking!! 
Whatever next, I would be embarrased to be walking about in stripes, then climb into a little C152 to go flying!!!
Come on boys, get a grip, its a flying school not an airline.
Whatever next, I would be embarrased to be walking about in stripes, then climb into a little C152 to go flying!!!
Come on boys, get a grip, its a flying school not an airline.
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Never quite understood the attraction of strutting around a flying club dressed like a general in the Bolivian Army.
As for doing it as a PPL, I reckon there'd need to be some deep-seated psychological feeling of social inadequacy going on there...
As for doing it as a PPL, I reckon there'd need to be some deep-seated psychological feeling of social inadequacy going on there...
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Gold stuff
I think its all about creating the correct sense of occasion for the circumstances. I agree that a flying CLUB and all the relaxed and informal associations with the word club suggest that gold bars, shirt and tie and knive edge creases are a bit over the top though nonetheless very smart. But take it up a notch to a flying school and the inference is that at this level the premises are often larger, slicker, smarter, better equipped and perhaps handling advanced and/or cpl training. The percieved need to create a more professional atmosphere does justify a more formal atire. Having worked as an FI myself in a commercial flying training college training CPL/ATPL students I can see the logic but we all wore three bars. The flight managers wore four; a little bit OTT for those amongst them who never had any previous airline or charter experience. However the rational was merely to visually designate management from the coal face workers.
For club staff I think chinos and a polo shirt is more than satisfactory and relaxed.
For club staff I think chinos and a polo shirt is more than satisfactory and relaxed.
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Bucket
Agree entirely. I work as an instructor in the mil, albeit as a civvy contractor, but we're still expected to maintain the same standards of dress, appearance and conduct as our serving mil colleagues otherwise 'military ethos' breaks down. During my mil QFI-equivalent conversion course I had to wear a plain green gro-bag; only after I had passed with CFS was I then 'worthy' of the eppaulette slides and name 'n' wings patch for the flying suit.
I agree that 'airline dress' is appropriate for commercial flying schools, but when the '4-bars' frenzy starts at trial-lesson C152 level it does become a bit excessive. I once knew a 'CFI' with the whole gold bars thing who had been instructing a handful of months with all of 200 hundred and something hours under his belt... And as for going to Tescos dressed like that after work....
Incidentally when I was doing the PPL-instructor thing I wore white shirt, black tie, black trousers and that was it. (Well, shreddies, socks and shoes as well I suppose...)
Like the company polo shirt and chinos idea.
Agree entirely. I work as an instructor in the mil, albeit as a civvy contractor, but we're still expected to maintain the same standards of dress, appearance and conduct as our serving mil colleagues otherwise 'military ethos' breaks down. During my mil QFI-equivalent conversion course I had to wear a plain green gro-bag; only after I had passed with CFS was I then 'worthy' of the eppaulette slides and name 'n' wings patch for the flying suit.
I agree that 'airline dress' is appropriate for commercial flying schools, but when the '4-bars' frenzy starts at trial-lesson C152 level it does become a bit excessive. I once knew a 'CFI' with the whole gold bars thing who had been instructing a handful of months with all of 200 hundred and something hours under his belt... And as for going to Tescos dressed like that after work....
Incidentally when I was doing the PPL-instructor thing I wore white shirt, black tie, black trousers and that was it. (Well, shreddies, socks and shoes as well I suppose...)
Like the company polo shirt and chinos idea.
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Gold bars are silly
As an instrucor I have worn the white shirt, tie and black pants when working for one school and have worn jeans and t-shirt when instructing for club. I have to say I felt much more relaxed in jeans and the loose t-shirt really helped with the scan. Interestingly the school I did the CPL/IR at had a mixture of pilot shirt/slacks/casual shirt/jeans and beer stained t-shirt. Each one delivered top quality in their own way and I think the delivery is far more important than the image. As for wearing gold bars, well that's just silly isn't it? 
Last edited by duir; 20th Jul 2006 at 19:06.
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Reading this along with the recent lengthy to wear a tie or not discussion, I think that there must be something wrong with people who get so upset over what someone else wears.
Surely there is a mental health issue with having such an obsession with other people's attire. No way someone with such an issue should ever be left in charge of anything other than a charity clothes shop.......wher they can discuss and sniff at other peoples clothes as much as they like.
It is the same as the people in battered fiat 127s complaining about people who drive BMWs.
Get a life.
Regards,
DFC
Surely there is a mental health issue with having such an obsession with other people's attire. No way someone with such an issue should ever be left in charge of anything other than a charity clothes shop.......wher they can discuss and sniff at other peoples clothes as much as they like.
It is the same as the people in battered fiat 127s complaining about people who drive BMWs.
Get a life.
Regards,
DFC
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DFC,
If the issue was simply "other peoples attire" you would of course be quite right.
However the issue here has to do with the displaying of badges denoting rank, authority or experience - and more specifically when this is laughably inappropriate, as in the case of a non-professional, non-instructor boss knocking about with 4 bars with an instructor/examiner in the same outfit only meriting 3.
I don't mind if you want to drive a big fast high performance car, but I reserve the right to be annoyed if you use blue-flashing lights to which you are not entitled to get me out of your way.
Please remember that the issue is not just about others, but also about what WE may be required or expected to wear - and this may occasionally be a source of some embarrasment to certain individuals who are perhaps naturally a tad more modest in the bling department..
If the issue was simply "other peoples attire" you would of course be quite right.
However the issue here has to do with the displaying of badges denoting rank, authority or experience - and more specifically when this is laughably inappropriate, as in the case of a non-professional, non-instructor boss knocking about with 4 bars with an instructor/examiner in the same outfit only meriting 3.
I don't mind if you want to drive a big fast high performance car, but I reserve the right to be annoyed if you use blue-flashing lights to which you are not entitled to get me out of your way.
Please remember that the issue is not just about others, but also about what WE may be required or expected to wear - and this may occasionally be a source of some embarrasment to certain individuals who are perhaps naturally a tad more modest in the bling department..
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Many years ago when a PPL instructor, I was having a drink in the club bar after flying one evening and heard the whine of four RR darts as a British Midland Viscount arrived for it's nightstop. Shortly afterwards the crew appeared thinking of a "swift one or two" before the crew bus picked them up to take them back to Castle Donnington. I was the only member in our bar as the entire crew: three hosties, captain, training captain and first officer entered the bar and requested my consent for them to have a drink. This was naturally rapidly granted, but I noted that as they passed the bar door, all epauletts were swiftly and quietly removed. We all enjoyed an excellent evening (because the crew bus got lost).
It's something I have never forgotton and always followed the example when I really had earned my four stripes.
P.P.
It's something I have never forgotton and always followed the example when I really had earned my four stripes.
P.P.
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Stewartflyer
Name badges been in use for instructors at Tayside for years. Also, at no point did anyone imply an 'unqualified' member of staff there was wearing bars, 4 or otherwise. Don't understand where you get that idea from? Which thread was it you were referring to, obviously wasn't this one...
Contrary to popular belief, Tayside was a professionally-run flying training school long before the current entourage established themselves at Fife. I can remember when TA were an IR training school the first time round. I did virtually all my flying training there, including RAF Flying Scholarship, and worked as an instructor for 3 happy years at Fife. I worked with some very professional people at Fife prior to the 2004 takeover.
Name badges been in use for instructors at Tayside for years. Also, at no point did anyone imply an 'unqualified' member of staff there was wearing bars, 4 or otherwise. Don't understand where you get that idea from? Which thread was it you were referring to, obviously wasn't this one...
Contrary to popular belief, Tayside was a professionally-run flying training school long before the current entourage established themselves at Fife. I can remember when TA were an IR training school the first time round. I did virtually all my flying training there, including RAF Flying Scholarship, and worked as an instructor for 3 happy years at Fife. I worked with some very professional people at Fife prior to the 2004 takeover.
Last edited by Speed Twelve; 22nd Jul 2006 at 19:52.
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Originally Posted by Blackshift
However the issue here has to do with the displaying of badges denoting rank, authority or experience - and more specifically when this is laughably inappropriate, as in the case of a non-professional, non-instructor boss knocking about with 4 bars with an instructor/examiner in the same outfit only meriting 3.
Oh yea,
I must tell all those juniour Captains that I don't like them wearing 4 stripes when I fly with them because a member of the public might not recognise that I am more senior, am an examiner and am their boss.
For Gods sake, a severe a case of inferiority / wannabe seniority complex I have never seen before.
Definitely not good airline material......too many people wearing stripes!
Regards,
DFC
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Stewartflyer has it absolutely right. Tayside is one of the best FTO's I have come across and with the move back into commercial training up to frozen ATPL it is not out of place to adopt a more professional approach. Do you complain when you see stripes on the shoulder of an instructor at Oxford or Jerez? I do part-time stuff there so don't wear bars but I do find it useful in identifying instructors I may not have met before so I can only assume that your average punter off the street has similar feelings.
Speed Twelve old bean, read Blackshift's post 4 above your own for the 4 bar thing.
Speed Twelve old bean, read Blackshift's post 4 above your own for the 4 bar thing.
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DB6
Hi chap. I have an idea who the '4-bar' is that Blackshift has posted about, having discussed the person in question with him in the past. There is no connection whatsoever with Tayside here. Incidentally, I did agree with the 'professional dress' approach to commercial flying training schools. I consider it the equivalent of instilling 'military ethos' at DEFTS/JEFTS by appropriate dress/attitude which as an ex-JEFTS man I know you appreciate.
DFC
I think the point here is not 'you've got more bars than me', but rather that we end up at the point where if people decide to randomly allocate themselves lots of bars, wings, flashing lights etc. it makes the entire concept somewhat worthless. Incidentally, I've known Blackshift for a number of years and he's got a pretty wise head on his shoulders. He certainly uses a lot of words in the pub that I don't understand...
Hi chap. I have an idea who the '4-bar' is that Blackshift has posted about, having discussed the person in question with him in the past. There is no connection whatsoever with Tayside here. Incidentally, I did agree with the 'professional dress' approach to commercial flying training schools. I consider it the equivalent of instilling 'military ethos' at DEFTS/JEFTS by appropriate dress/attitude which as an ex-JEFTS man I know you appreciate.
DFC
I think the point here is not 'you've got more bars than me', but rather that we end up at the point where if people decide to randomly allocate themselves lots of bars, wings, flashing lights etc. it makes the entire concept somewhat worthless. Incidentally, I've known Blackshift for a number of years and he's got a pretty wise head on his shoulders. He certainly uses a lot of words in the pub that I don't understand...
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Flippin Eck!
I have many fond memories of Glenrothes, where I worked for a few years before resigning at the same time as other instructors due to the attitude of the new management at the time - one example being their publication in the club newsletter of their intention to instill a "more professional attitude" amongst their instructors by introducing a new uniform.
Until this point myself the other guys had always adhered to a dress code of white shirt, black tie and shoes etc and had no had reason to believe that our professionalism was in question.
We were also subjected to the interesting and novel experience of being inappropriatly "advised" about our flying by a non-professional.
Just a reminder of my first words on the item which is causing so many people a problem here :-
Although this is not so mythical a beast as many might think, I have no current knowledge of such matters at Glenrothes any more - hence the question mark.
Nevertheless I am subjected to the following rant by DFC :-
... well you will no doubt be glad to hear that I have never applied to an airline and have no intention of doing so in the foreseeable future. As it happens it's not exactly my cup of tea, although I'm sure you are very happy there.
Speedy,
Thanks for that mate, although you really are too modest.
I have many fond memories of Glenrothes, where I worked for a few years before resigning at the same time as other instructors due to the attitude of the new management at the time - one example being their publication in the club newsletter of their intention to instill a "more professional attitude" amongst their instructors by introducing a new uniform.
Until this point myself the other guys had always adhered to a dress code of white shirt, black tie and shoes etc and had no had reason to believe that our professionalism was in question.
We were also subjected to the interesting and novel experience of being inappropriatly "advised" about our flying by a non-professional.
Just a reminder of my first words on the item which is causing so many people a problem here :-
Could be worse : there could be a non-instructor PPL boss knocking around sporting 4 bars.
... come to think of it, there isn't is there?
... come to think of it, there isn't is there?
Nevertheless I am subjected to the following rant by DFC :-
For Gods sake, a severe a case of inferiority / wannabe seniority complex I have never seen before.
Definitely not good airline material......too many people wearing stripes!
Definitely not good airline material......too many people wearing stripes!
Speedy,
Thanks for that mate, although you really are too modest.