Logging a club currency check flight
Join Date: May 2001
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I've just spoken to someone who gained something like 10 PIC hours by logging club checkout time as P1. And he's new license just turned up the other day (CPL), not one finger raised by the CAA.
Last edited by Superpilot; 6th Apr 2006 at 16:02.
Join Date: Feb 2006
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P1/PIC does not concern who is the handling/flying pilot - it is purely who takes responsibility for the safe conduct of the flight. In the case of a check fight, that MUST be the instructor.
But i guess if you're that desperate for the hours then go ahead and log them however you like. You're only fooling yourself!
But i guess if you're that desperate for the hours then go ahead and log them however you like. You're only fooling yourself!
SR10,
Have a look at LASORS Section A Appendix B "Recording of flight time" - if you don't like what you find you could try asking the CAA to change it. Also, next time you have a check flight, make sure you write-out and sign a waiver stating that you will take full responsibility if the FI fails to prevent an accident and inviting the FI to sue you.
I can assure you that many FIs are not interested in claiming hours; only in enhancing safety and effective teaching.
What's your golf handicap?
HFD
Have a look at LASORS Section A Appendix B "Recording of flight time" - if you don't like what you find you could try asking the CAA to change it. Also, next time you have a check flight, make sure you write-out and sign a waiver stating that you will take full responsibility if the FI fails to prevent an accident and inviting the FI to sue you.
I can assure you that many FIs are not interested in claiming hours; only in enhancing safety and effective teaching.
What's your golf handicap?
HFD
Join Date: May 2005
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Just had a look at Lasors Section A, appendix B. Still mystified!
Let me just change the tack of this thread a little. Can any of you guys tell me (definitively, now, no speculation) why clubs insist upon these currency checks? Are such checks specified at the whim of the club' management, or are they stipulated by some other agency?
Secondly, if I own a light aircraft and have its hull insured, will the insurer insist that I fly every 30 days?
Let me just change the tack of this thread a little. Can any of you guys tell me (definitively, now, no speculation) why clubs insist upon these currency checks? Are such checks specified at the whim of the club' management, or are they stipulated by some other agency?
Secondly, if I own a light aircraft and have its hull insured, will the insurer insist that I fly every 30 days?
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I'm just about to do my first check ride with a club member so I'm having to give this some thought. So here goes with my view on the situation.
Before the flight the commander must be nominated - FACT.
When we are airbourne and the club member does something daft I may have to take control - Yes!
If the club member is P1 then I have no right to take control off the commander.
I must therfore be nominated as P1 and it goes that the club member is Pu/t. P1u/s (it's not a test) or P2 (it's not a multi-crew aircraft) does not apply.
At the end of the flight even if I havn't touched the controls we can't change the fact that I was P1.
If anybody can fault my logic please do as this is an important issue
Before the flight the commander must be nominated - FACT.
When we are airbourne and the club member does something daft I may have to take control - Yes!
If the club member is P1 then I have no right to take control off the commander.
I must therfore be nominated as P1 and it goes that the club member is Pu/t. P1u/s (it's not a test) or P2 (it's not a multi-crew aircraft) does not apply.
At the end of the flight even if I havn't touched the controls we can't change the fact that I was P1.
If anybody can fault my logic please do as this is an important issue
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When I fly with an instructor for any check rides I always ask if they are going to log the flight themselves. If they say no I log P1, if they say yes I log PU/T.
Surely the simplest approach, when the instructor is going to log the flight themselves, is:
OC619
Surely the simplest approach, when the instructor is going to log the flight themselves, is:
- Inform the club member that you (the instructor) are going to log the flight as P1.
- Point out that this means they (the club member) should log PU/T - as there cannot be two P1s.
- If they log P1 then, depending on the environment, either ignore it or speak to the CFI (who can have a chat / decide if the individual fits in with the club ethos).
OC619
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Hi,
just for your general knowledge if u find this post irrelevent. Anyway in malaysia, we follow the uk system. What we do is, if the student does not have a PPL then whenever he is with an instructor he will be P/UT. If the student had passed his/her test, obtain a PPL then whenever he/she flies with an instructor, the time they log will be P1/US and instructor P1. Unless the PPL holder is doing a training such as instructor rating then they will log as P/UT.
Sound logical to me Pilot/ Under Training must be a student learning something new.
Pilot/Under Supervision must be a pilot who can fly but just need guidance such as rating on another aircraft, flying to an airfield that needs special attention, doing club currency check. Other then that all Flightest must be under P/UT.
Thats how it works in malaysia. Cheers.!
just for your general knowledge if u find this post irrelevent. Anyway in malaysia, we follow the uk system. What we do is, if the student does not have a PPL then whenever he is with an instructor he will be P/UT. If the student had passed his/her test, obtain a PPL then whenever he/she flies with an instructor, the time they log will be P1/US and instructor P1. Unless the PPL holder is doing a training such as instructor rating then they will log as P/UT.
Sound logical to me Pilot/ Under Training must be a student learning something new.
Pilot/Under Supervision must be a pilot who can fly but just need guidance such as rating on another aircraft, flying to an airfield that needs special attention, doing club currency check. Other then that all Flightest must be under P/UT.
Thats how it works in malaysia. Cheers.!
Thread Starter
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Maybe that works in Malaysia, but in the UK P1/S is specifically for a succesful flight test with an examiner. Since most instructors are not examiners their students cannot log P1/S so it has to be P1 or P.u/t.
I for one am going to stick with loggin P1 for checkrides, but just make sure before the flight that the PPL is happy with that. So far I've not done any checkrides where I have been 100% happy with their performance anyway, so there can be no argument about it. If I make any comments other than 'good' I cannot be treated as a passenger.
I for one am going to stick with loggin P1 for checkrides, but just make sure before the flight that the PPL is happy with that. So far I've not done any checkrides where I have been 100% happy with their performance anyway, so there can be no argument about it. If I make any comments other than 'good' I cannot be treated as a passenger.
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For my two pennorth - The FAA system seems to work. When I get checked out by my US instructor in California, I am always informed that I am P1 for the time that I "was the sole manipulator of the controls". I am also expected to handle the radio, the preflight planning and preflight inspection. If he intervenes to demonstrate a manoeuvre to me, or to ensure safety of the flight (Which happily has never happened!) then for the time that he is "the sole manipulator of the controls" I am no longer P1. I am then P/UT. I should add that I am a qualified pilot, rather than a student pilot.
Naturally, this can be flexible. I wanted to take some photos on my last flight, and he flew the aeroplane for 15 minutes, so that I could get some good shots. I dont think he claimed P1 time for that!
It does get complicated. I still think that the 90 day pax carrying rule is somewhat absurd. I realise that the rule is written to protect non- pilot passengers from flying with a "lapsed" pilot, but if the "passenger" is a qualified PPL who is in currency on the aeroplane type then perhaps this should be allowed. It would help to keep a pilot current - by offering a saving on a club checkout.... Mind you, I am sure that the professional instructing community wont welcome my statement.
Having said that - I subject myself to club checkouts. What I DONT do, is a quick whizz round the circuit for 15 or 20 minutes. If I am compelled to fly with an instructor, I will make my flight of good value. Bite the bullet, and pay for the hour. I then use my time with the bloke (or bloke-ess) to refine and practice my skills - PFLs, Slow flight, flapless approaches, short field and so on.
This also boosts self confidence.
So......
In the UK its P1, or if flying with an FI P/UT or Dual. There is no other interpretation of the rules that is possible.
Cheers
Naturally, this can be flexible. I wanted to take some photos on my last flight, and he flew the aeroplane for 15 minutes, so that I could get some good shots. I dont think he claimed P1 time for that!
It does get complicated. I still think that the 90 day pax carrying rule is somewhat absurd. I realise that the rule is written to protect non- pilot passengers from flying with a "lapsed" pilot, but if the "passenger" is a qualified PPL who is in currency on the aeroplane type then perhaps this should be allowed. It would help to keep a pilot current - by offering a saving on a club checkout.... Mind you, I am sure that the professional instructing community wont welcome my statement.
Having said that - I subject myself to club checkouts. What I DONT do, is a quick whizz round the circuit for 15 or 20 minutes. If I am compelled to fly with an instructor, I will make my flight of good value. Bite the bullet, and pay for the hour. I then use my time with the bloke (or bloke-ess) to refine and practice my skills - PFLs, Slow flight, flapless approaches, short field and so on.
This also boosts self confidence.
So......
In the UK its P1, or if flying with an FI P/UT or Dual. There is no other interpretation of the rules that is possible.
Cheers
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It would appear to me that the CAA must take the blame here. The only obvious common sense way a PPL on a check flight can be logged is as P1s as they are not P/ut or P1. But the CAA say they can only be P1s when on a flight test with an examiner. I think whoever thought this code up in the first place didn't think about check flights with FIs as they cannot be correctly entered. I therefore enter P1 on my log book and P1s in the PPLs. This way both me and the PPL get what we want (P1s counts as P1 for CPLs) and if the CAA have a problem with that then they can tell me and I will ask them what they think it should be! I put all my check flights as a PPL as P1s (as told to do) and the CAA accepted it - I also know they went through my logbook at CPL issue with a fine tooth comb as they rejected a P1s entry for a type conversion on a C172, so assume they are happy to accept P1s for a check flight. I am not an examiner.
thanks.
thanks.
