Solo sign-offs... again

[Paragon]

Hi,

I've tried searching both the active forum and the archives but have been unable to find the info I am after hence the post...

Regarding the solo sign-offs that are required to de-restrict a JAR FI(R) rating, is it a requirement that in order to supervise a student solo flight, one must first fly with them?

I know it is a tetchey subject since if you don't fly with someone how do you know they are safe to fly, but is it ok to brief, supervise and then debrief a student on the recommendation of another FI who has just flown with them, and thus count it as a sign-off?

Many thanks, (in advance of a barrage of abuse )

[Dr Eckener]

but is it ok to brief, supervise and then debrief a student on the recommendation of another FI who has just flown with them

Ask yourself - how does the above enable me to judge my ability to send someone solo once I become unrestricted. The answer - it doesn't.

You may get away with short cuts. At the end of the day it is up to your CFI to recommend the removal of your restriction (although the CAA will check against your log book), but you need to understand what the restriction is there for. It is so that you can prove your competence to judge student readiness for solo. If you get your sign offs without having done this then you are potentially on thin ice if anything goes pear shaped.

[Whirlybird]

I was once told that I could send someone solo without flying with them if I wanted to. I thought about how it would look if anything went wrong...."Well, I didn't fly with him, because X said he'd be OK". Wouldn't look good, would it...I decided to fly with him.

[unfazed]

Paragon,

From my experience the 25 "solo sign off" restriction is beareaucratic piece of nonsense with most new instructors simply finding expeditious ways to keep the "mandarins" happy

Ask yourself if after passing FI course, CPL, PPL,IR ATPLS etc etc etc you can judge if somebody knows how to fly or not???

OK Guys now the can of worms is open !!!!

Come on you all know that solo signs off's are traded over a pint at the end of the day

[BEagle]

No they're not!

But if you really can't consider sending someone solo with whom you have never flown, you're going to be of little use to any flying club once your 'R' is removed.

Supervision is a matter of considering all aspects of the intended flight, not merely of assessing the pilot's handling skills. That's what the supervising FI is looking for when listening to the brief you give to the student and the manner of your supervision.

But the 25 solo sign-offs is utterly pointless. The CAA will only allow 1 for a 3 x 2 hour qualifying cross-country exercise (even though each leg is, by definition, a separate flight), but if you authorised the same pilot for 3 separate solo GH trips on the same day, that would be fine...

Or 25 individual flights of 1 circuit each?

[Craggenmore]

The CAA will only allow 1 for a 3 x 2 hour qualifying cross-country exercise

Oh bugger, I need a few more!

(p.s. Are you sure?)

[FlyingForFun]

So the general consencus here is a big No. And if we're talking about a student who has just done some dual circuits with another instructor, and is now about to do some solo circuits immediately following that flight, then that makes sense.

But.....

Imagine a student about to go on a solo cross-country. The only other instructor (the student's regular instructor) is not available - maybe he's off on a dual cross-country himself with another student.

You review the student's training record. He has completed several hours of solo circuits. He has also done a couple of solo navigation trips prior to this one. His last trip was a dual navigation trip with his regular instructor, on the same route as he is flying today, and his instructor's comments were all positive.

You now talk to the student, go over his plog, question him about the weather, the Notams, the air traffic units he will contact, the altitudes he plans to fly at, etc. He has a good understanding of the route. His wind calculations are all correct. He maybe asks you a question about one particular aspect of the flight, and you answer the question. Then you send him off for his cross country.

Surely you are now supervising this solo flight, despite having never flown with the student?

FFF
----------------

PS - Craggenmore, BEagle is correct that the QXC only counts as one flight, this is explicitly stated in LASORS

[BEagle]

Craggenmore:

From LASORS 2006:

H1.4 FI(A) RATING FLIGHT AND
THEORETICAL TRAINING
REQUIREMENTS TO REMOVE FLIGHT
INSTRUCTOR RESTRICTIONS

Removal of Supervisory Restriction

a) The Supervisory Restriction can be removed on
the recommendation of the supervising FI(A)
once the applicant has at least 100 hours flight
instruction and, in addition, has supervised at
least 25 student solo flights.

It should be noted that supervision of a students
PPL(A) qualifying cross country flight is counted
as one flight only. Approval of first solo flights by
day or night and first solo navigation flights by day
or night are excluded.

[Craggenmore]

Thankyou for the responses. It was not what I wanted to read though!

[unfazed]

Surely you are now supervising this solo flight, despite having never flown with the student?


Larger training establishments operate this team approach which is sensible and safe and works well for the students, it does require a team attitude from all instructors along with some very clear SOP's

Works well for me and my fellow instructors

[SD.]

Can anyone shed some light on this from a FAA CFI to CAA FI conversion point of view please. I don't really want to spend another 5k on a full FI course!!!!!!!!

At the moment I've got the best part of 150 hours dual given, by the time of conversion I guess that will be around the 300 mark. Does FAA student sign offs contribute or do all the sign-offs (to be credited towards the 25) have to be with JAA students?

I was under the impression that the first solo and qualifying XC couldn't be credited, thanks to Beagle that cleared that matter up.


Thanks

[FlyingForFun]

SD,

Sorry, I don't know how to convert an FAA CFI to a JAR FI rating. I just had a quick browse through LASORS and couldn't see anything in there, but I'm sure a more detailed read of Section H will hold the answer.

However,

I was under the impression that the first solo and qualifying XC couldn't be credited

I think what you were probably thinking of if the first solo and the first solo cross-country.

The reason for this is that, under JAR, an instructor can not supervise a first solo nor a first solo cross country until he has had the supervisory restriction removed. (You are also not allowed to supervise a first night solo or a first night solo cross country.) Therefore, it would make sense that neither first solos nor first solo cross-countries can count towards the supervised solos required to remove the restriction - although I don't know what the view would be on supervising an FAA student on a first solo if this is allowed by the privileges of your FAA CFI rating???

[Paragon]

if we're talking about a student who has just done some dual circuits with another instructor, and is now about to do some solo circuits immediately following that flight, then that makes sense.

Flyingforfun, do you mean in your oppinion it would be acceptable for a an FI(R) to supervise a solo flight if the student has just flown with an unrestricted FI colleague?

I'm certainly not suggesting that it would be ok to send someone solo without anyone flying with them beforehand.

Another factor is that for many instructors becoming unrestricted means getting a pay rise which may create a tendancy to rush getting the sign offs so they can pay the rent...

[FlyingForFun]

Paragon, I'm not sure I entirely understand your question. I think you may be quoting me out of context.

To clarify, I said:

So the general consencus here is a big No. And if we're talking about a student who has just done some dual circuits with another instructor, and is now about to do some solo circuits immediately following that flight, then that makes sense.

What I am refering to here is the situation where an early solo student (who has probably not progressed beyond circuits) flies with an unrestricted instructor. The unrestricted instructor jumps out the aircraft and send the student solo. A restricted instructor then claims this solo flight as one of his 25 supervised solos.

I have no doubt that this does go on, but in my opinion it is most definitely against the spirit of the rule, and should not be allowed, since the restricted instructor has played no part in deciding whether the student should go solo or not. And this seems to concur with the general concensus on this thread.

But then, to throw the cat amongst the pidgeons, I suggested an alternative scenario (which I described in my earlier post, so I won't repeat it) whereby it is, in my opinion, quite acceptable and within the spirit of the rule for an instructor to claim that he has supervised a student solo, despite not having flown with the student immediately prior to the flight, and possibly having never flown with the student.

I think that clears up the first part of your query. But then you said:

I'm certainly not suggesting that it would be ok to send someone solo without anyone flying with them beforehand

And this might explain why you didn't quite understand what I was trying to get at. At my school, it is quite normal for students to go solo without anyone flying with them immediately beforehand. Our FOB requires the student to have flown the type within 14 days prior to the solo flight (in contrast to the 28 days currency rule for the holder of a PPL). It also states that early solo students, who have less than 2 hours of solo circuits, will require a checkout by an instructor immediately prior to any solo flight - but this requirement does not exist once the student has 2 hours' solo.

It is therefore quite normal, at my school, for a student to do a solo cross-country without an instructor flying with him immediately before he goes off, so long as he complies with the 14-day currency rule. And, in fact, it would not be possible to be in the situation I was trying to describe of a restricted instructor supervising a solo without flying with the student first if we did not allow solo student flight in this way.

If you school's rules are different and you require a flight with an instructor prior to any solo, then I can't imagine a case where an instructor could claim to have supervised a student without flying with him first in that environment, since it would logically fall to the instructor who flew with the student to supervise the solo.

FFF
--------------

[Whopity]

Look at it this way; if you authorise a solo flight and the student has a fatal accident, you will probably finish up being questioned in court.

"Tell me Mr Jones, how did you assess the ability of the student that you sent solo? Was he an average student?"

"Dunno Me Lud, I've never flown with him?"

"But you authorised him as competent to fly on his own!"

Think of the liability; you are wide open to being sued by the student's estate!

[unfazed]

Well Mlud

He had completed 500 hours dual with our CFI over the past 2 years and his file indicated that he had also completed 200 solo flights without incident and was an above average student, so I felt happy to provide a routine briefing on the by now "well familiar" route and a safety check on the forecast weather........

[SD.]

Thanks FFF for your help

I'll have a look through the LASORS or even drop a line to the CAA.

[mad_jock]

I must admit I was party to one chap who had 500 hours instructing but only 4 solo sign off's due to his previous employers "rules" getting the whole lot done in one day. He just sat in the office doing briefs all day. Briefed 5 students in one go for the circuit. And it was very common for any instructor on the ground to sign out solo nav's and circuits without flying with the student. The CFI did it all the time and he wouldn't fly with any of them so he could do the test at the end.

The rule described by FFF about the +2 hours and current within 14 days is quite sensible. Also if you go down the lines of solo x-countrys it really doesn't matter who is signing them out after the first one in relation to them needing a handeling check. All the checking is done on the planning.

Must agree with BEagle the whole issue of solo sign offs and general transition from Restricted to unrestricted is so wooly and open to abuse it is pointless. Personally it took me 5 weeks to get unrestricted. Looking back was I ready for it? Nah of course I wasn't. 1 guy taught to solo standard tons of trial flights and maybe 3-4 post solo.

You now have people potentially with 100-200 hours under there belt and never done a first solo themselves supervising restricted FI's.

[fenfly01]

solo sign off

My two cents....

Surely, if a student has been signed off by an unrestr.FI for first solo/x country, then he has met and proved all the relevant standards for any solo or solo x country. If a restr FI subsequently wants to send the stude solo, and provided club recency and weather conditions permit, then this should be fine even without flying with the student. A thorough brief and scenario discussion, a check on his student records and if possible, a chat with the previous instructor, should suffice. The student is either capable for solo/x country or not at his first solo/x country check. I believe this would be satisfactory in a court.

With regards first solo:As CFI, I would ask my restr.FI to fly with their student until THEY would have sent them first solo, before i fly with the student. This way the law is met and the new FI has an assessment as to their decision making on first solo's. This will hopefully improve their confidence for when they become unrestricted.

My views, hope they help!

[Whopity]

The advice from the CAA is quite simple, you must have flown with them and you should have taught the exercise that you are briefing them to fly solo, but not necessarily with the same student. It used to be in an AIC!