Light Aircraft Strikes Fin on Cable During PFL
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Light Aircraft Strikes Fin on Cable During PFL
This happened with an experienced instructor and professiona pilot, who then landed in a field and inspected the damage (there was some but cannot confirm the extent) and then said instructor chose to fly aircraft back to base with his student .
I think this is questionable decision, as ground engineer should sign off the plane before it flys again after any form of collision. There could have been structural failure. But was it legal to fly and when can you take the aircraft back to base without it being released by an engineer?
I will not name the instructor or club concerned so do not ask me to, I merely wish to gather information as I think this individual is a danger and I want the club to do something as he has performed 'foolhardy' stunts in the past yet no-one will pull him up as they are scared and intimidated by him.
I think this is questionable decision, as ground engineer should sign off the plane before it flys again after any form of collision. There could have been structural failure. But was it legal to fly and when can you take the aircraft back to base without it being released by an engineer?
I will not name the instructor or club concerned so do not ask me to, I merely wish to gather information as I think this individual is a danger and I want the club to do something as he has performed 'foolhardy' stunts in the past yet no-one will pull him up as they are scared and intimidated by him.
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Re: Light Aircraft Strikes Fin on Cable During PFL
Ah yes Buck, I totally agree!!
It doesn't surprise me one little bit. Maybe he has gone one step too far this time. If this gets around, it may have major implications for the club and it maybe the 'straw that broke the camels back' !!
We shall wait and see
C99
It doesn't surprise me one little bit. Maybe he has gone one step too far this time. If this gets around, it may have major implications for the club and it maybe the 'straw that broke the camels back' !!
We shall wait and see
C99
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Re: Light Aircraft Strikes Fin on Cable During PFL
So cactus, you must know the club and instructor involved?
News travels fast.
what i think is most amaziing is he did not even offload his student/passenger.
News travels fast.
what i think is most amaziing is he did not even offload his student/passenger.
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Re: Light Aircraft Strikes Fin on Cable During PFL
Yes, I do indeed know who was involved, I like to keep my finger on the pulse!!
But seriously though, what a complete
. This man is an CAA examiner, what was he thinking about?. Maybe said student would like to give his side of events on this forum!
This incident is surely an MOR, or classed as an accident and should have nessesitated an on site inspection or investigation before being allowed to move the airframe?
I cant help but think about how low the aircraft was before striking the cable, 10-14 feet agl....
I wonder if the CAA know???
But seriously though, what a complete
. This man is an CAA examiner, what was he thinking about?. Maybe said student would like to give his side of events on this forum!This incident is surely an MOR, or classed as an accident and should have nessesitated an on site inspection or investigation before being allowed to move the airframe?
I cant help but think about how low the aircraft was before striking the cable, 10-14 feet agl....
I wonder if the CAA know???
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Re: Light Aircraft Strikes Fin on Cable During PFL
Yes, it must have been extremely low. The pylons / cables perhaps sighted at the last moment and the grabbed controls to dive under. How lucky were they to miss with the prop / canopy if he still managed to strike the tail section?? It doesn't bear thinking about how tragic this event could have been.
Why was the choice of field not questioned and the cables sighted during the approach and why the heck were they so low to come into conflict with them (500' rule.)
"KEEP THE APPROACH GOING I'LL TELL YOU WHEN TO GO AROUND, I AM IN CHARGE, I AM THE CAPTAIN"
I have heard countless stories of this persons tyrany in the cockpit.....
Should CRM not become an integral part of the PPL course?
ANYONE, absolutely ANYONE can add to CRM, even as a passenger, by doing a lookout etc. It's management of the relationship during the flight that encourages and promotes this, not the sort of bullying this type lavishes on others.
Why was the choice of field not questioned and the cables sighted during the approach and why the heck were they so low to come into conflict with them (500' rule.)
"KEEP THE APPROACH GOING I'LL TELL YOU WHEN TO GO AROUND, I AM IN CHARGE, I AM THE CAPTAIN"
I have heard countless stories of this persons tyrany in the cockpit.....
Should CRM not become an integral part of the PPL course?
ANYONE, absolutely ANYONE can add to CRM, even as a passenger, by doing a lookout etc. It's management of the relationship during the flight that encourages and promotes this, not the sort of bullying this type lavishes on others.
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Re: Light Aircraft Strikes Fin on Cable During PFL
500' from any person, vessel, vehicle or structure. (Vertically or horizontally or a combination)
Is a cable classed legally as a structure? I assume so.
Is a cable classed legally as a structure? I assume so.
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Re: Light Aircraft Strikes Fin on Cable During PFL
Eastern philosophical reply:
Is a cable classed legally as a structure? I assume so.
If a structure falls in a forest, but there is no-one there to hear it, what noise did it make?
Or perhaps,
If a structure is not seen or heard, can it really be a structure?
Just a bit of early Saturday a.m. humour. Don't mind me...
O8
Is a cable classed legally as a structure? I assume so.
If a structure falls in a forest, but there is no-one there to hear it, what noise did it make?
Or perhaps,
If a structure is not seen or heard, can it really be a structure?
Just a bit of early Saturday a.m. humour. Don't mind me...
O8
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Re: Light Aircraft Strikes Fin on Cable During PFL
Of course a MOR should have been filed and the aircraft not moved after landing until certified to do so by an engineer, but, due to the embarassment and inconvenience, some people will never bow to the law of the land (air) or common sense.
A good few years ago, I seem to remember of a bloke taxying his Robin and his wing contacted a mound of earth (I think) anyway, it was sufficiently serious for said pilot to get out and examine the wing. He noticed nothing untoward, just a tiny swelling on part of the underside so proceded to take off to return from whence he came.
I cannot remember now at what point of the flight his damaged main spar actually failed and whether it killed him or he got out alive. I merely noted that ANY distortion of a wooden structure is potentially extremely serious and will be investigated before such an aircraft gets airborne again.
P.P.
A good few years ago, I seem to remember of a bloke taxying his Robin and his wing contacted a mound of earth (I think) anyway, it was sufficiently serious for said pilot to get out and examine the wing. He noticed nothing untoward, just a tiny swelling on part of the underside so proceded to take off to return from whence he came.
I cannot remember now at what point of the flight his damaged main spar actually failed and whether it killed him or he got out alive. I merely noted that ANY distortion of a wooden structure is potentially extremely serious and will be investigated before such an aircraft gets airborne again.
P.P.
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Re: Light Aircraft Strikes Fin on Cable During PFL
Close but no cigar.
The aeroplane was a Robin DR400 and the obstruction a mown bale of hay.
Short synopsis.
Aeroplane lands in a gusty crosswind and directional control not maintained. Gets from the RWY onto a grass area with big cylindrical haybales on it.
Hits one.
Aeroplane looked over by the owner prior to returnflight.
Near Filton pilot experiences control difficulty and subsequent wing seperates. Outcome fatal for the pilot (sole occupant)
Full report here: http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resou...pdf_500558.pdf
Back to the original posting. Without knowing all the details it is difficult to say what is what, but at face value it would seem that hitting something and flying the aeroplane back without an inspection by a qualified engineer is not best airmanship.
The aeroplane was a Robin DR400 and the obstruction a mown bale of hay.
Short synopsis.
Aeroplane lands in a gusty crosswind and directional control not maintained. Gets from the RWY onto a grass area with big cylindrical haybales on it.
Hits one.
Aeroplane looked over by the owner prior to returnflight.
Near Filton pilot experiences control difficulty and subsequent wing seperates. Outcome fatal for the pilot (sole occupant)
Full report here: http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resou...pdf_500558.pdf
Back to the original posting. Without knowing all the details it is difficult to say what is what, but at face value it would seem that hitting something and flying the aeroplane back without an inspection by a qualified engineer is not best airmanship.
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Re: Light Aircraft Strikes Fin on Cable During PFL
Thanks for that Flyin'Dutch, my ancient memory of the incident is now fully refreshed. When I said "investigated" in my post, I should have added "by an appropriately licenced engineer."
P.P.
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Re: Light Aircraft Strikes Fin on Cable During PFL
Back to the post.
Where ?
When ?
Who ?
& How ?
These questions all spring to mind.
I find it difficult to believe there hasn't been a bit of embellishment
However it is a good rumour
Where ?
When ?
Who ?
& How ?
These questions all spring to mind.
I find it difficult to believe there hasn't been a bit of embellishment
However it is a good rumour
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Re: Light Aircraft Strikes Fin on Cable During PFL
This is unusual for me, but I would like to question part of this public lynching. In the past I have slagged people off for dangerous flying and been abused by the defenders of the foolish. To fly again is terrible airmanship, but was it illegal?? Also, if nobody was about, does the 500' rule apply?? From my military helicopter days, I remember wires being strung across the strangest of places, often over huge valleys and being 100'+ agl. If you push hard to go under 10-14' wires, you will crash into the ground!!
I certainly am not condoning his actions, from those who know him he seems to be infamous, but lets judge on the facts when we question how he hit the wires.
I certainly am not condoning his actions, from those who know him he seems to be infamous, but lets judge on the facts when we question how he hit the wires.
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Re: Light Aircraft Strikes Fin on Cable During PFL
I agree.
On the face of it.
Unprofessional, Poor airmanship and illegal.
BUT
We need a few facts, may follow with a GASIL in a few months? maybe
On the face of it.
Unprofessional, Poor airmanship and illegal.
BUT
We need a few facts, may follow with a GASIL in a few months? maybe
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Re: Light Aircraft Strikes Fin on Cable During PFL
This also happened a few years ago at AST, Perth. Instructor was "show-boating" at low-level on a Trial Lesson (!), failed to see a telephone cable, struck it damaging the windscreen, wing root and wrapping a bit of cable round the elevator. He landed at a disused airfield by the Tay, removed the offending piece of wire, got airborne and returned to Perth claiming he had "hit something" but didn't know what it was!
There was no evidence left of the cable, so no-one was able to prove what he'd hit. He was however "done" by the CAA for landing at an unlicenced airfield on an instructional flight, with fairly severe consequences.
Sounds like almost an exact copy of this event, hope the outcome is the same. Idiot.
There was no evidence left of the cable, so no-one was able to prove what he'd hit. He was however "done" by the CAA for landing at an unlicenced airfield on an instructional flight, with fairly severe consequences.
Sounds like almost an exact copy of this event, hope the outcome is the same. Idiot.
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Re: Light Aircraft Strikes Fin on Cable During PFL
I don't want this to become a public lynching, so thta's why I wont name the club or person involved. But I do want to check teh legailty of the return flight so I can bring this up with the club. I'm more interested in promoting a safe environment to fly in at the club and I think this incident is indicative of said persons arrogant manner and approach to things. He has done similar things before you know!!
Is the general belief that flight should not have taken place until an engineer inspected and released the aircraft?
As far as location and height of obstacle, lets just say they were VERY low to come into contact and i think teh 500' rule applies during a PFL...........in fact he lambasted a PPL holder during a club check-out flight for decending too much in PFL!!!
Is the general belief that flight should not have taken place until an engineer inspected and released the aircraft?
As far as location and height of obstacle, lets just say they were VERY low to come into contact and i think teh 500' rule applies during a PFL...........in fact he lambasted a PPL holder during a club check-out flight for decending too much in PFL!!!
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Re: Light Aircraft Strikes Fin on Cable During PFL
It depends what the damage is / was.
If you have say a C172 and you have a bird strike/ hit a hare off the main gear I would have a check it hadn't damaged the brakes/ wheels and also the mounting bolts for paint cracking and fly it again.
But anything to do with the main flight surfaces needs looked at.
If its the bloke I think your on about I would be very wary of creating a fuss at the club or even letting known that your not happy. Its a perfect example of what chirp is created for.
If you have say a C172 and you have a bird strike/ hit a hare off the main gear I would have a check it hadn't damaged the brakes/ wheels and also the mounting bolts for paint cracking and fly it again.
But anything to do with the main flight surfaces needs looked at.
If its the bloke I think your on about I would be very wary of creating a fuss at the club or even letting known that your not happy. Its a perfect example of what chirp is created for.
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Re: Light Aircraft Strikes Fin on Cable During PFL
Mad Jock
You are obviously quite intuitive.......then againthere are a few giveaway clue in the thread. My biggest concern is the safety aspect and how much worse this incident could have been. In flying, we don't leave things to chance that's why we have procedures, rules (some of it is bureacratic and out of date) but sticking to the rule book is what makes flying a safe way to travel. This incident spells out how the attitude of one individual COULD have turned out bad and how they dont play by the rules we all have to. It was also a bad example to set a student!
Im insterested why you think I shoudl not raise the issue within the club. I haven't been there very long but can see there are under currents among the members and unhappiness with this person, in and out of the cockpit. Are there politics or issues with the person/club I need to be aware of? Any help or advise up can offer, please do so or send me a PM. I feel if we ignore the issue then somethign worse could happen and we would all feel we had faield the system by not reporting or askign the club to do something about them.
You are obviously quite intuitive.......then againthere are a few giveaway clue in the thread. My biggest concern is the safety aspect and how much worse this incident could have been. In flying, we don't leave things to chance that's why we have procedures, rules (some of it is bureacratic and out of date) but sticking to the rule book is what makes flying a safe way to travel. This incident spells out how the attitude of one individual COULD have turned out bad and how they dont play by the rules we all have to. It was also a bad example to set a student!
Im insterested why you think I shoudl not raise the issue within the club. I haven't been there very long but can see there are under currents among the members and unhappiness with this person, in and out of the cockpit. Are there politics or issues with the person/club I need to be aware of? Any help or advise up can offer, please do so or send me a PM. I feel if we ignore the issue then somethign worse could happen and we would all feel we had faield the system by not reporting or askign the club to do something about them.
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Re: Light Aircraft Strikes Fin on Cable During PFL
The comment about being wary is more the fact that you maybe getting used by others to do their dirty work trying to get shot of him.
Personally I would delete this thread. You are right being concerned. But I can guarantee you don't know the full story. The club can't do anything as the training provider is a separate entity to the club. Chirp is the method to raise your concerns. If after the report the powers that be don't do anything it really isn't your problem.
Its very unlikely for the CAA to bring a prosecution in Scotland due to the fact that they can't recover their cost like they can in England. Its not very cost effective to spend 30k on prosecuting a Pilot for only a 200 quid fine. And the PF's really ain't interested when nobody died. And they have have a 2 meter high pile of Ned's to prosecute for drugs and GBH.
MJ
Personally I would delete this thread. You are right being concerned. But I can guarantee you don't know the full story. The club can't do anything as the training provider is a separate entity to the club. Chirp is the method to raise your concerns. If after the report the powers that be don't do anything it really isn't your problem.
Its very unlikely for the CAA to bring a prosecution in Scotland due to the fact that they can't recover their cost like they can in England. Its not very cost effective to spend 30k on prosecuting a Pilot for only a 200 quid fine. And the PF's really ain't interested when nobody died. And they have have a 2 meter high pile of Ned's to prosecute for drugs and GBH.
MJ
Last edited by mad_jock; 16th Jan 2006 at 11:49.
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Re: Light Aircraft Strikes Fin on Cable During PFL
[quote=mad_jock]
But I can guarantee you don't know the full story. The club can't do anything as the training provider is a separate entity to the club.
if you can guarantee i don't know teh full story, then you obviously know the blanks that are missing so must know what teh story is?
As for the trainer being sererate entity and "the club can't do anything", that's bollox cos they fly the club planes and we know where they fly in and out of, teh club expects highest standards always.
I wont delete this thread either but that's up to the moderators if they think it's not acceptabel to be posted.
But I can guarantee you don't know the full story. The club can't do anything as the training provider is a separate entity to the club.
if you can guarantee i don't know teh full story, then you obviously know the blanks that are missing so must know what teh story is?
As for the trainer being sererate entity and "the club can't do anything", that's bollox cos they fly the club planes and we know where they fly in and out of, teh club expects highest standards always.
I wont delete this thread either but that's up to the moderators if they think it's not acceptabel to be posted.
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Re: Light Aircraft Strikes Fin on Cable During PFL
Nope neither do I want to know. Its bloody obvious that the only responce you are going to get on here is that its a daft thing to do and illegal. Might make you feel better people agreeing with you. But the result is nothing.
The club v training provider is a very complex issue which is different in every setup. Usually with all sorts of accountancy going on to decrease the tax exposure. And usually the training provider holds most of the cards including the jokers. Its very easy to setup up another club ( all they need to do is lease in a few aircraft) but it is very expensive and labour intensive requiring alot of fannying about to setup another training provider. A club can't sack a training providers employee. If its a bum fluffed faced FI no problem they can be shifted out by not giving them any work, starvation will make them leave. It is a competly different kettle of fish with an old instructor who knows the score. When a training provider left Perth it was a right pain for everyone concerned. And I know nothing about the in's and out's of why that happened.
The suggestion to delete the thread wasn't due to legal reasons or any other motive apart from to help your cause. The majority of FI's in scotland will have guessed who you are on about and a few phone calls will have been made. Most of the career/ experenced Instructors/examiners are extremly good at covering their arses, with this thread you have given the heads up that its out in the open.
By highlighting airmanship flaws/ illegal flights through this medium it basically stops any chance of the CAA doing anything about it. The person in question can cover there tracks so any impending investigation will not be able to progress to any useful conclusion.
I am sure that because of this thread that at least 2 flight ops inspectors who are very GA themselves will know about it and have guessed who your on about. But will be unable to do anything about it because the required reporting method hasn't been followed and they can't act on rumour from PPrune.
If you had chirp'd it the CAA would have been able to contact the student, the FI and an engineering inspection of the damage done. Now any case has been made 10 times harder because its in the public domain.
MJ
The club v training provider is a very complex issue which is different in every setup. Usually with all sorts of accountancy going on to decrease the tax exposure. And usually the training provider holds most of the cards including the jokers. Its very easy to setup up another club ( all they need to do is lease in a few aircraft) but it is very expensive and labour intensive requiring alot of fannying about to setup another training provider. A club can't sack a training providers employee. If its a bum fluffed faced FI no problem they can be shifted out by not giving them any work, starvation will make them leave. It is a competly different kettle of fish with an old instructor who knows the score. When a training provider left Perth it was a right pain for everyone concerned. And I know nothing about the in's and out's of why that happened.
The suggestion to delete the thread wasn't due to legal reasons or any other motive apart from to help your cause. The majority of FI's in scotland will have guessed who you are on about and a few phone calls will have been made. Most of the career/ experenced Instructors/examiners are extremly good at covering their arses, with this thread you have given the heads up that its out in the open.
By highlighting airmanship flaws/ illegal flights through this medium it basically stops any chance of the CAA doing anything about it. The person in question can cover there tracks so any impending investigation will not be able to progress to any useful conclusion.
I am sure that because of this thread that at least 2 flight ops inspectors who are very GA themselves will know about it and have guessed who your on about. But will be unable to do anything about it because the required reporting method hasn't been followed and they can't act on rumour from PPrune.
If you had chirp'd it the CAA would have been able to contact the student, the FI and an engineering inspection of the damage done. Now any case has been made 10 times harder because its in the public domain.
MJ
Last edited by mad_jock; 16th Jan 2006 at 15:10.