UK standards for instructing SEP
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I had an experience with a chap who was going to instruct at our club. So i sat with him for some local familiarization, he nearly stalled in at 6 feet above the runway until i woke up grabbed hold of the controls and recovered the situation. He admitted he froze on the controls. He later became a Captain with a well known small airline.
Another chap who stuffed an aircraft into a hillside in imc, wanted to get airborne after his long recovery from hospital.
We entered imc whilst flying and he was quite happy to descend over high terrain whilst still imc!
Both of the above where UK trained instructors.
No matter where they have been trained there will always be some pilots who who are crap.
Another chap who stuffed an aircraft into a hillside in imc, wanted to get airborne after his long recovery from hospital.
We entered imc whilst flying and he was quite happy to descend over high terrain whilst still imc!
Both of the above where UK trained instructors.
No matter where they have been trained there will always be some pilots who who are crap.
This half full/half empty nonsense has always amused me. Some really daft psychobabble is spun around it!
I would say "The quantity indicator displays 50% contents".
Surely the actual answer should describe the progress achieved towards the final result? So, if filling something up then at 50% quantity it's half full; whereas if emptying it then it's half empty at 50% quantity?
Psychobabbling trick cyclists come just below estate agents and snake oil salesmen in my league of charlatans!
I would say "The quantity indicator displays 50% contents".
Surely the actual answer should describe the progress achieved towards the final result? So, if filling something up then at 50% quantity it's half full; whereas if emptying it then it's half empty at 50% quantity?
Psychobabbling trick cyclists come just below estate agents and snake oil salesmen in my league of charlatans!
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Now now chaps, calm down, calm down. It's a whole other topic but BEagle does have a point, unfazed. When I first became an instrutor the CFI took me aside and gave me several tips, one of which was 'if a guy comes to you with a US PPL, BE CAREFUL. They may be just fine but they may not - be on your guard'. I thought that piece of advice a little strange until some years later when a chap did just that - wanted a checkout to hire an aircraft with a US PPL. When you've been instructing for a while you get know the difference between someone who is not very good and one who has been badly taught. This guy was the latter AND HOW! It's hard to expain if you haven't experienced it but I knew that is he was turned loose he WOULD crash, not to mention busting all manner of airspace and not being able to talk to anyone while doing it. Truly remedial and when I debriefed him on UK standards he agreed and was retaught - turned out fine. It's not a myth and it's by no means widespread but some people come back from America with a piece of paper that is literally worse than useless.
Now back to the original thread.........
Now back to the original thread.........
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If you get caught out by a Check out ride quite honestly its your own fault.
We have all had the odd person who we thought was OK pull a blinder lets face it. Everyone does it occasionally.
Now back to the issue of standards.
I doudt very much if any of the methods employed in the Uk is significantly different to any other countrys.
The methods employed by the RAF in the intial years of aviation have become pretty much standard around the world. Basically because they proved without doudt they work. The americans have as usual gone the easy way in some respects. They are right in someways the British have always been known for doing things the hard way. Its a pretty well know concept in the armed forces of the British way and the American way. 95% of the time you will get away with doing the US method. By the time that they realise it should have really done it the British way its to late.
Now how do we get PPL's not pissed off with getting constantly retrained when they are using perfectly acceptable methods? If they are crap and dangerous deal with it. I suspect most of us wouldn't pass each others check rides if it was done blind without the instructor know what thay had sitting next to them.
It would be great if the CAA tasked a new staff examiner who's face isn't known. Tour the country with a fresh PPL and 70hour log book and see how many times they get re-trained, informed they arn't doing it properly and they have to do it this way.
MJ
We have all had the odd person who we thought was OK pull a blinder lets face it. Everyone does it occasionally.
Now back to the issue of standards.
I doudt very much if any of the methods employed in the Uk is significantly different to any other countrys.
The methods employed by the RAF in the intial years of aviation have become pretty much standard around the world. Basically because they proved without doudt they work. The americans have as usual gone the easy way in some respects. They are right in someways the British have always been known for doing things the hard way. Its a pretty well know concept in the armed forces of the British way and the American way. 95% of the time you will get away with doing the US method. By the time that they realise it should have really done it the British way its to late.
Now how do we get PPL's not pissed off with getting constantly retrained when they are using perfectly acceptable methods? If they are crap and dangerous deal with it. I suspect most of us wouldn't pass each others check rides if it was done blind without the instructor know what thay had sitting next to them.
It would be great if the CAA tasked a new staff examiner who's face isn't known. Tour the country with a fresh PPL and 70hour log book and see how many times they get re-trained, informed they arn't doing it properly and they have to do it this way.
MJ
Re: UK standards for instructing SEP
Geez, the Wright brothers must have been truly crap! I'm British trained and believe myself to be of a decent standard, but I can say with all my heart that the hardest of all check out's have been in the U.S! I have an FAA CPL Multi too and I sweated buckets over that!
I can only presume that when Boeing designed the 747 they must have asked the Brit's to test fly it??
I think that the general standards in the UK are as good as anywhere else and we could continue this argument forever, as mentioned earlier you will get crap everywhere, I can think of at least 5 airline pilots in the UK with whom I would not allow my family to fly on the same aircraft...ever
Anyway, back to the original topic...
I can only presume that when Boeing designed the 747 they must have asked the Brit's to test fly it??
I think that the general standards in the UK are as good as anywhere else and we could continue this argument forever, as mentioned earlier you will get crap everywhere, I can think of at least 5 airline pilots in the UK with whom I would not allow my family to fly on the same aircraft...ever
Anyway, back to the original topic...
Last edited by youngskywalker; 3rd Jan 2006 at 09:24. Reason: add text
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Re: UK standards for instructing SEP
When I first became an instrutor the CFI took me aside and gave me several tips, one of which was 'if a guy comes to you with a US PPL, BE CAREFUL. They may be just fine but they may not - be on your guard'.
Say's it all I think
And so the "ancient mysteries" of this noble art,
and cycle of prejudice is passed from "master" to "grasshopper"
Say's it all I think
And so the "ancient mysteries" of this noble art,
and cycle of prejudice is passed from "master" to "grasshopper"
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Re: UK standards for instructing SEP
It's really the examiner's job of enforcing standards at SEP level. If an instructor sends students up who aren't ready then this should be made known to the regulator who should find out why. Problem I see is that examiners tend to make a judgement call at PPL level on whether the student is 'safe' to embark on his licence to learn. The vast majority of the time this will work out OK, but you will get some muppets fall through the cracks, but no system will ever prevent this happening. I am sure there are muppets flying jets who get through the tough quality control at airlines.
Anecdotal stories about FAA/JAA/CAA individual cases are good for after dinner speeches but not much else. I've had a fair few CAA checkout candidates, the vast majority of whom are safe to go with minimal difference training. Recent currency appears to be key and not whether their licence came from the back of a cornflake packet. However looking at the recent changes to the JAA PPL, they do seem to be including new stuff the FAA has had in there for some time. No doubt JAA will one day be requiring GPS approaches in suitably equipped aircraft when taking the IR, and in the JAA registered plane the ADF will be something you use to listen to the sports results.
Anecdotal stories about FAA/JAA/CAA individual cases are good for after dinner speeches but not much else. I've had a fair few CAA checkout candidates, the vast majority of whom are safe to go with minimal difference training. Recent currency appears to be key and not whether their licence came from the back of a cornflake packet. However looking at the recent changes to the JAA PPL, they do seem to be including new stuff the FAA has had in there for some time. No doubt JAA will one day be requiring GPS approaches in suitably equipped aircraft when taking the IR, and in the JAA registered plane the ADF will be something you use to listen to the sports results.
Re: UK standards for instructing SEP
Heard that old one many times too! Really ought to change my breakfast cereal, wish I could find one of those crap FAA CPL's in my cornflakes...really, I have no idea how I have survived, and for 12 years too, bugger me, must have been luck I guess. It's bad enough that I wasnt trained by the RAF, but to go through a flying club and then get a US licence...time for me gentlemen, is running out.............
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It seems to me that people will always slag off what they don't know or don't understand the whole FAA vs JAA argument is getting just a little tiresome (to say the least)
I have dual qualifications CPl Multi IR from JAA/FAA and a JAA FI and can honestly say that both Authorities have there strong points and both have there weak points. There is no substantial difference between the syllabi both are looking for "safe private pilots" who are going to continue learning as their experience increases.
As for the comments about FAA pilots getting their licenses from cereal boxes and being dangerous "utter bollox"is the only phrase that comes to mind.
We have all had PPL's try to kill us during their training and some even insist on trying during dual checks!!!
Rant Over
I have dual qualifications CPl Multi IR from JAA/FAA and a JAA FI and can honestly say that both Authorities have there strong points and both have there weak points. There is no substantial difference between the syllabi both are looking for "safe private pilots" who are going to continue learning as their experience increases.
As for the comments about FAA pilots getting their licenses from cereal boxes and being dangerous "utter bollox"is the only phrase that comes to mind.
We have all had PPL's try to kill us during their training and some even insist on trying during dual checks!!!
Rant Over
